The trouble with getting people into Arma

[Omninorm 1]

I just want to add to this interesting thread.

I'm new to ARMA2 - as in 1 day. Bought Combined operations on Steam yesterday.

Played the training missions and 1 Mp mission and I'm hooked. i have been wanting a game like this since the old DeltaForce landwarrior games.

just to add.. I am a BF3 player on PC...I like the game but it gets boring after I played them on console ( 1943, BF2, Bad Company, Bad Company 20 then i got back into PC gaming and got BC3. I don't like CoD. I was browsing around and found some ARMA3 footage on youtube. Then i decided to look at the devs and found Arma 2. looked on Steam and found A2:CO.

The main reason why I am now an Arma 2 player is BECAUSE of the Sandbox, MIlsim and type of gameplay it offers. It's a damn breath of fresh air in this stale game industry. I seriously hope BI doesnt want to the BF3 / CoD etc etc type gameplay. That market is catered for and saturated. BI has a GEM here.

yes make it a little more sleek. for goodness sake add a Mod Updater/packager type tool to make the installation easy to do and you will have MATURE, audience that actually spends money on your products here.

i tell my friends (All of whom are 26+ and more towards 30) of ARMA, i show them stuff and i have 3 of them lining up to buy it.

1 problem... seriously complicated to get mods going and find out what to do on servers cause they use this or that pack. So Google is needed to look for info. 1 or 2 of them will go through the trouble. We are serious Milsim Airsoft players... so they love the idea of ARMA but the others will lack the patience and technical skill/time to go through all of it.

Don't change the milsim and sandbox (modding) stuff!

[Minoza 11]

Allowing us to bind frequently used commands to that menu would be even better. Not everyone will use the same ones.

[Smurf 12]

I too agree that a commo-rose style menu would be very welcome for the most basic\used commands at least. One with one central "blob" and 8 others around, beign the central one contextual (point to the ground = move. car = get in - hold it instead of just clicking and other otions apear like get in as gunner\commander etc).

You could also expand that if you put 2 commands in the same "blob", one for the RMB and LMB. That work very well in Project Reality.

Also you could have 2 roses, one for quick commands and stuff and other one more complex for the tactical part (formation, waypoints, squads; stuff that you don´t change while engaging).

As a matter of fact I had an idea for a whole new scheme for the keyboard as I really don´t like how it is in previous titles. But I never managed to put it on paper, probably would get a lot of flak from some people around here... :j:

[spotter001 82]

OFP never had a radial menu (i don't even remember a mod for it). I am pretty sure you are confusing things

The fact that it isn't on confirmed features doesn't matter all that much especially since A3 still about 8-12 months to go

Sorry, maybe i'm wrong but how do u call those menus present in Dragon Rising and Red River?

@Panda_pl:

ur right, the radial menus have their limitations but i think it's acceptable, and more importantly, fast enough if it's only 2, 3 levels deep. u know like, 1-activate (pressing the appropriate key) 2-press W,S,D,A twice or three times and that's it. after a bit of practice it would seriously speed up the process of giving some commands. naturally, only the most frequent commands would be present-Move/Stance/RoE and perhaps-a team selection. I'm used to divide my squad into smaller 2 or 3-men teams and i'd really like to have a faster way for selecting them.

Previous ideas for radial menus do not involve removing the old style controls, only augmenting them with an optional extra method. But even so, I doubt that more than a very few people actually move AND shoot AND give orders all at the same time.

exactly. even if such a menu makes u stop, well what the heck! this is arma not cod right, who needs to run+shoot+issue orders here? it would be to much even for the CoD runnin'n'gunnin style:D

Arma essentialy needs two menus.

A radial one for quick access of frequently used commands that could be opened with holding a key (maybe TAB if BIS really gets rid of TAB targeting, TAB would be a good key for it) and can be navigated with the mouse.

And a old school complex menu that has all the fancy stuff we have now opened by another key (one of the windows keys? Or the key to the right of the right windows key? Or even the Backspace key!) that can be navigated with the mouse or the numbers while it is open.

Improvements with this method: we finally get a easy to understand and use radial menu, we free up all the number keys that now can be used for weapon selection or something else.

i second this.

and yeah, freeing the number keys would be a dream come true here. if there's anything i like in bf/moh/cod that's the concept of actively using ur sidearm cause it's "always faster to pull out a sidearm than to reload ur main weapon".

that concept (fast switching) is almost ridiculed in Arma cause we loose several seconds due to scrolling and this "chill out, u'll be fine" animation.

so check this out: ur in close contact and ur rifle's mag has just gone empty. what would u do?

1. pull out ur gun as fast as possible and return fire

2. keep it cool & relaxed, put ur rifle elegantly on ur back and then elegantly pull out ur gun all the while enemy keeps sending lead towards u 10m away

Unbelievably, but Arma gives u only the second option. That's one solid reason why we need number keys free for weapons, and we need some sort of fast switching. Always reminds me of a Delta operator from the "Black hawk down" movie. The scene when they pull out from the city, he fires back from m4 but the mag gets empty, enemy is right in front of him and he pulls his sidearm rapidly and saves his life.

[antoineflemming 14]

Unbelievably, but Arma gives u only the second option. That's one solid reason why we need number keys free for weapons, and we need some sort of fast switching. Always reminds me of a Delta operator from the "Black hawk down" movie. The scene when they pull out from the city, he fires back from m4 but the mag gets empty, enemy is right in front of him and he pulls his sidearm rapidly and saves his life.

Don't mean to spoil anything, but there something similar in Act of Valor. Near the end of the movie, during the final operation of the battle, one of the SEALs, Chief Dave, has to do the same thing. His M4A1 is on a sling, so he just drops it, letting it hang from his vest, and pulls out his sidearm relatively quickly. However, it's understandable how long it takes in ArmA 2 given what the animation actually is. The character puts his weapon on his back before pulling out his sidearm. So yeah, that takes time. It'd be better if the rifle would just hang. This actually is the case when pulling out binoculars or a SOFLAM. The rifle just hangs from the vest. The same thing needs to happen when switching to a sidearm, and even when throwing a grenade. It needs to happen for anything that requires the player character to take his hands off of his rifle.

[JdB 151]

Sorry, maybe i'm wrong but how do u call those menus present in Dragon Rising and Red River?

Those games aren't typically called "OFP" on these forums all that often (if at all), hence the confusion. Most people don't consider them OFP games, especially those that have played the real OFP from the beginning. "DR" and "RR" are what most people call them to avoid confusion (and the inevitable flamefest over whether they deserve to be called "OFP" games or not).

Radial menus would be a good thing, especially if they can be customized. Perhaps have two menus, one under Ctrl + LMB and another under Ctrl + RMB. Not sure about multiple layers in a single menu, I've never been a fan of that. Just slows things down imo.

Edited March 5, 2012 by JdB

[antoineflemming 14]

Those games aren't typically called "OFP" on these forums all that often (if at all), hence the confusion. Most people don't consider them OFP games, especially those that have played the real OFP from the beginning. "DR" and "RR" are what most people call them to avoid confusion (and the inevitable flamefest over whether they deserve to be called "OFP" games or not).

Radial menus would be a good thing, especially if they can be customized. Perhaps have two menus, one under Ctrl + LMB and another under Ctrl + RMB. Not sure about multiple layers in a single menu, I've never been a fan of that. Just slows things down imo.

I'd say no more than 2 layers (including the "top" layer). But, then again, even the standard menu in ArmA 2 has multiple "layers" (you know, the "more" option). Here are three somewhat similar radial menus (and the three best IMO).

Battlefield 2 PR:

ArmA 2 PR:

America's Army 3:

4-Blade

8-Blade

ArmA 3 could do something like either of these for weapon selection and basic commands (although, I'd suggest doing something like AA3's, since it just looks the simplest)

[PuFu 4591]

Sorry, maybe i'm wrong but how do u call those menus present in Dragon Rising and Red River?

It's not about how i call the menus in those games, it is about how i DON'T call those games OFP, because the only thing in those games have in common with OFP is that they have guns and they shoot bullets.

http://community.bistudio.com/wiki/Category:Operation_Flashpoint

[tacticalnuggets 24]

I just want to add to this interesting thread.

I'm new to ARMA2 - as in 1 day. Bought Combined operations on Steam yesterday.

Played the training missions and 1 Mp mission and I'm hooked. i have been wanting a game like this since the old DeltaForce landwarrior games.

just to add.. I am a BF3 player on PC...I like the game but it gets boring after I played them on console ( 1943, BF2, Bad Company, Bad Company 20 then i got back into PC gaming and got BC3. I don't like CoD. I was browsing around and found some ARMA3 footage on youtube. Then i decided to look at the devs and found Arma 2. looked on Steam and found A2:CO.

The main reason why I am now an Arma 2 player is BECAUSE of the Sandbox, MIlsim and type of gameplay it offers. It's a damn breath of fresh air in this stale game industry. I seriously hope BI doesnt want to the BF3 / CoD etc etc type gameplay. That market is catered for and saturated. BI has a GEM here.

yes make it a little more sleek. for goodness sake add a Mod Updater/packager type tool to make the installation easy to do and you will have MATURE, audience that actually spends money on your products here.

i tell my friends (All of whom are 26+ and more towards 30) of ARMA, i show them stuff and i have 3 of them lining up to buy it.

1 problem... seriously complicated to get mods going and find out what to do on servers cause they use this or that pack. So Google is needed to look for info. 1 or 2 of them will go through the trouble. We are serious Milsim Airsoft players... so they love the idea of ARMA but the others will lack the patience and technical skill/time to go through all of it.

Don't change the milsim and sandbox (modding) stuff!

This person hit the nail on the head, and what i've been shouting over and over and over again on this forum. MP and Mod management need major updates in our era.

[spotter001 82]

It's not about how i call the menus in those games, it is about how i DON'T call those games OFP, because the only thing in those games have in common with OFP is that they have guns and they shoot bullets.

http://community.bistudio.com/wiki/Category:Operation_Flashpoint

okay, i see what u mean. both DR and RR have the "OFP" title in front of their names and hence the confusion.

@JdB:

yeah thanks, i got it by now (for the DR and RR issue).

having a possibility of two radial menus like u said (lctrl+lmb & lctrl+rmb) sounds even better. hypothetically, if devs take some time to think it out there could be a chance to have all commands in those two radials....and i don't think there would be a need for them to be deeper than 3 levels (including the top level).

@antoinflemming:

yup, i like the one from AA3 too. btw, how do u activate that menu in A2? i've never seen it before. i have the ACE2 but i don't know if that comes from it.

just a thought: is there a way to vote for a feature? or at least, can some forum member of the "higher authority" ask for the radial menus in the wish list?

[NoRailgunner 0]

Sorry can't understand the love of cluttering/watching the screen with some fancy command rose systems or funny signs. Or is it just because people got used to consolish menus with big layers and "click here", "click there", "clickyclicky me" stuff on their screen? Are the majority of pc players have become really that incabable of learning/recalling keys and shortcuts? Does growing up with console gaming make players lazy and less comfortable to adapt new/other controllers? Or does the gaming industry just try to simplify/"dumb" things much more to the lowest common denominator/level just for the sake of making profit? I am not against improving current controls/menus but as player I would not like to get "immersed" or "entertained" with a control system or HUD that clutters my ingame/characters eye everytime I have to do or order something.

[maddogx 13]

Sorry can't understand the love of cluttering/watching the screen with some fancy command rose systems or funny signs. Or is it just because people got used to consolish menus with big layers and "click here", "click there", "clickyclicky me" stuff on their screen? Are the majority of pc players have become really that incabable of learning/recalling keys and shortcuts? Does growing up with console gaming make players lazy and less comfortable to adapt new/other controllers? Or does the gaming industry just try to simplify/"dumb" things much more to the lowest common denominator/level just for the sake of making profit? I am not against improving current controls/menus but as player I would not like to get "immersed" or "entertained" with a control system or HUD that clutters my ingame/characters eye everytime I have to do or order something.

You're falsely assuming (as so many have done before you) that such a command-rose menu would have to completely replace the current system, thus forcing you to use it. What makes you so sure that this will be the case?

Anyway, what's so bad about making a system more easy to use? And conversely what's so great about forcing people to memorize a bunch of shortcuts instead of presenting them with a system that can be grasped more quickly?

From most of the anti-commo-rose comments here, I seem to pick up a certain "butt-hurt" vibe, as if Arma veterans could not stand it if a more usable command system were introduced, thus sparing newcomers the hassle of memorizing all those bloody shortcuts.

[EDcase 87]

I think we need a compromise here because the commarose only has 8 options it will get too cluttered to replicate all the commands.

What about a number key as it is now to bring up the appropriate rose such as move/target/stance/engagement etc.

I would like to see a rose replace the default mouse wheel options as its a pain so select the right one when under fire and moving the mouse alot. Then that creates a problem because you cant turn while the rose it active. :( DOH!

I don't mind what BiS does as long as they keep the number key combos as a backup. Once you get used to them they really are the fastest way to issue commands and there's no reason why BiS can't implement both systems.

Edited March 6, 2012 by EDcase

[rainbird 1]

Sorry can't understand the love of cluttering/watching the screen with some fancy command rose systems or funny signs. Or is it just because people got used to consolish menus with big layers and "click here", "click there", "clickyclicky me" stuff on their screen? Are the majority of pc players have become really that incabable of learning/recalling keys and shortcuts? Does growing up with console gaming make players lazy and less comfortable to adapt new/other controllers? Or does the gaming industry just try to simplify/"dumb" things much more to the lowest common denominator/level just for the sake of making profit? I am not against improving current controls/menus but as player I would not like to get "immersed" or "entertained" with a control system or HUD that clutters my ingame/characters eye everytime I have to do or order something.

appearance-wise, I agree with you 100%, I definitely would't want to see a typical consolish looking commandrose which takes up 3/4 of the screen. It should definitely look appropriate for ArmA and take-up a minimal amount of screen space. Compact and sophisticated :) And it should obviously augment the keystrokes we have and not replace them.

commandroses are actually a PC invention and have been being used in high-end PC productivity apps long before they were poularized by consoles. I think they can really help organize the command hierarchy of complex apps and give the user a more instant "picture" of command possibilities and routes to take. with good dynamic menu contextualization you can also ruduce the rose clutter too, of course. They also make it possible to execute "gesture based" commands issuing - which is just where the user can very quickly "swipe" a pattern of movement which corresponds to the multi-level navigation of the rose.

that's just my opinion, and it would have to be proven to be useful/practical by BIS. it will all boils down to how well BIS could execute its implementation and would take a lot of careful thought by BIS. commandroses are not just about a visual appearance.

[feralcircus 2]

Surely simply memorising the keys which are all literally at your fingertips, is easier than bringing up a bizarre graphical multi choice menu that obscures your vision of what's actually going on in front of you?!?!?

[Tonci87 163]

Surely simply memorising the keys which are all literally at your fingertips, is easier than bringing up a bizarre graphical multi choice menu that obscures your vision of what's actually going on in front of you?!?!?

The key word is optional

Make it switchable in the options and everyone is happy.

[antoineflemming 14]

Sorry can't understand the love of cluttering/watching the screen with some fancy command rose systems or funny signs. Or is it just because people got used to consolish menus with big layers and "click here", "click there", "clickyclicky me" stuff on their screen? Are the majority of pc players have become really that incabable of learning/recalling keys and shortcuts? Does growing up with console gaming make players lazy and less comfortable to adapt new/other controllers? Or does the gaming industry just try to simplify/"dumb" things much more to the lowest common denominator/level just for the sake of making profit? I am not against improving current controls/menus but as player I would not like to get "immersed" or "entertained" with a control system or HUD that clutters my ingame/characters eye everytime I have to do or order something.

Don't know what you're talking about, but everything I posted was PC. It actually has nothing to do with console games. And it really doesn't clutter any more than the current system. Plus, if you learn how to use it, it'll be on and off your screen quicker than the current menu. It's so that you don't have to scroll wheel everytime you want to order or do something. Hold a button to bring it up, release that button to remove it from your screen.

I really don't want to be offensive, but you remind me of people who are resistant to change, like some people hated the computer when the first personal computers were made because they had never grown up with it. My own father was like that. Just because you aren't used to it , or it's new to you, doesn't mean that it is automatically a bad thing.

[feralcircus 2]

The key word is optional

Make it switchable in the options and everyone is happy.

That's fair enough matey :-)

The 1st thing i do with any simulation is turn off any visual helpers. Things like Map of the track on a driving sim, transparent speedo... etc... But each to their own i guess.

[spotter001 82]

Sorry can't understand the love of cluttering/watching the screen with some fancy command rose systems or funny signs. Or is it just because people got used to consolish menus with big layers and "click here", "click there", "clickyclicky me" stuff on their screen? Are the majority of pc players have become really that incabable of learning/recalling keys and shortcuts? Does growing up with console gaming make players lazy and less comfortable to adapt new/other controllers? Or does the gaming industry just try to simplify/"dumb" things much more to the lowest common denominator/level just for the sake of making profit? I am not against improving current controls/menus but as player I would not like to get "immersed" or "entertained" with a control system or HUD that clutters my ingame/characters eye everytime I have to do or order something.

sorry but i don't see any serious point here....are u saying u don't have to click anything now in Arma? just in case u don't see it, ur already cluttered with a list which consumes all number keys-the very same ones which could be used for a more practical thing. and don't forget that same list is more than one level deep too.

i don't think there's anything wrong with industry or gamers but i wonder about u. is it so hard to understand that giving some commands could be significantly faster if u only use W,S,D,A keys instead of 10 number keys? not to mention that u keep ur fingers on w,s,d,a all the time anyhow which makes it additionally more practical than 1-0 keys.

The key word is optional

Make it switchable in the options and everyone is happy.

perfect!

[maddogx 13]

Surely simply memorising the keys which are all literally at your fingertips, is easier than bringing up a bizarre graphical multi choice menu that obscures your vision of what's actually going on in front of you?!?!?

I reckon there are about 50-60 key combos for commands/responses, some of which (off the top of my head, the watch direction commands) are three levels deep. Now I know that I have to press 3-8 to bring up this particular set of commands, but if I want to make my guys watch south... hmmm, which key? 5? 6? Not sure, I'd have to check. And whooop, there it is: I have to take my eyes off whatever else I was watching and look through the list. How is this any better than having a commo rose in the screen? I can't concentrate on whatever else I was doing either way. At least a commo rose can be made mostly transparent, so that I still have a chance of seeing what's going on behind it.

Btw. I've been using this bloody system for ten years. Now imagine how someone who doesn't have any experience with the current command system would feel in this situation, or any command situation for that matter.

A commo rose could be a great addition that would give newcomers quick and intuitive control of the basic command functions. Note that I'm not saying a possible radial menu system should replace the current list-of-lists-of-lists system, but it could be an enhancement for it. After all, it needn't contain all the existing commands, only a few of the most commonly needed ones.

I would actually make two commo roses - one for quick-action related commands that is only one level deep, and one for combat mode and formation commands with two levels of depth.

The quick action rose I envision would have five options (one in the center and four around it):

- Move/attack/get in/use: the one in the center, context sensitive depending on what you're pointing at.

- Watch: watch this position/direction/object. Easily an improvement over having to press 3-8-(X), and much more versatile.

- Defend: take up a defensive position in/around that area/building, or in/around whatever or whoever you pointed at.

- Assault: move to assault the given position/building.

- Suppress: put suppressive fire on this position/building.

The second one would have four top level options, each with the four most sensible sub-options, for example (not necessarily the "best pick"):

- Combat mode

• Alert
  
• Combat
  
• Stealth
  
• Safe
  

- Formation

• V
  
• Line
  
• Column
  
• Delta
  

- Stance

• Copy mine
  
• Stand
  
• Kneel
  
• Prone
  

- Behaviour

• Engage at will
  
• Return fire only
  
• Hold fire
  
• Retreat
  

I don't see how adding such a system to what we have now would detract from the game in any way.

[Smurf 12]

Commo Rose is a feature of games like BF2/3, OPFDR and so on. Including it in A3 will turn it in an arcade shooter automatically, no matter what. :rolleyes:

As stated in the last page, Im with MadDogX in this one, I only would add 8+1 commands instead of 4+1 in the "action" rose. Within one week anyone would know where is what thus decreasing the time the rose stay on the screen to almost none.

[NoRailgunner 0]

If BIS can develop and implement an alternate/optional working control menu that does not interfere with natural (eye-) vision, does not clutter the screen and still look decent + more/better and stoppable animations - it could be great. Just because I like a clear ("real") view + proper animations/movements from first person view doesn't mean that I can't adapt to other systems. But maybe some people who got used to commo rose and popcorn shooters are just a bit more reluctant to learn, adapt, survive and win? Guess for now its better to wait and see how BIS is going to improve menu/command system. ;)

[antoineflemming 14]

If BIS can develop and implement an alternate/optional working control menu that does not interfere with natural (eye-) vision, does not clutter the screen and still look decent + more/better and stoppable animations - it could be great. Just because I like a clear ("real") view + proper animations/movements from first person view doesn't mean that I can't adapt to other systems. But maybe some people who got used to commo rose and popcorn shooters are just a bit more reluctant to learn, adapt, survive and win? Guess for now its better to wait and see how BIS is going to improve menu/command system. ;)

Well yeah, just as long as you realize that "commo rose" and "popcorn shooters" can be mutually exclusive. :P

[tacticalnuggets 24]

Most gamers hate fighting against AI, they dont need a command menu against human players. A guy already posted in this thread the direct cause of his friends fear of the game. Clearly, nobody cared, because this thread has been derailed.

[antoineflemming 14]

Most gamers hate fighting against AI, they dont need a command menu against human players. A guy already posted in this thread the direct cause of his friends fear of the game. Clearly, nobody cared, because this thread has been derailed.

Wait, who posted this? Cuz multiple people have posted why their friends haven't gotten into ArmA. There isn't one sole reason that people don't get into the game. There really isn't one answer.