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The trouble with getting people into Arma

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What you utterly fail to comprehend is that the maps in all of the games you mentioned are mere flyspecks in comparison to ARMA maps.

Yep, and not only map size, but a whole persistent world, not player centric, where a lot of things can happen at the other end of the map leaving trace of it.

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also realize that making another clone of 'CODBFMWMOHCSS' may not lead to success ... remarkable games must stand out on it's own ...

Agree. I hope ArmA 3 is nothing like those horrible games. I want a remarkable MilSim - it's what BIS does best. ;)

Edited by rainbird

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A couple of other issues I had in ArmA 2 today:

The AI can not jump over sand bags like the player. I made a mission where AI units where hiding behind sand bags. When my squad came up to them they joined my squad, of course, they were stuck as the AI can not jump/mantle over sand bags. And in general the "Squad move here" command is very off. The menus for setting up IEDs and (ACE) and selecting weapons is so cumbersome it is mind boggling. A SWAT 4 or Raven Shield style command menu is much needed.

ArmA 3 needs to be improved in the SP aspect as well. Currently in ArmA titles it is the player doing everything, switching between units to get them to do their job. It just kills immersion and makes the game less fun. I want the AI units to be able to do something, not behave like total idiots. :D

If BIS would pay attention to issues like these rather than add in railgun tanks the player base would increase.

Edited by Flogger23m

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:blahblah2:

Here we go again. I thought we'd killed this monster, but oshit, it's back. If anything, this post should be in the ArmA 2: OA Suggestions thread so it can be firmly ignored.

Yeah, maybe the helmets aren't exactly the same, but at LEAST they are actually wearing something that resembles ACUs

Aside from the officers, which even I admit are totally incorrect (nice Russian boots!), the OA riflemen, etc, look fine with regard to the actual ACU seam setup. The most glaring inaccuracy I can see are the pockets on the bottom of the blouse and probably the lack of a pen stall. Lol @ the tan velcro tape on Shepherd's pockets, while we're there.

I'm saying that they should look like the real thing, and the COD and BF models come a lot closer to looking like the real thing than ArmA's models do.

Since you've managed to acquire the ability to time travel, please tell me how infantry in 2035 are going to look. Imma gonna extend this to another post you made recently, namely these shitpot antics. How do you know what the Crye under armour shirt is going to look like in 23 years time?

If you want to make comment on the models, speak in general anatomical terms (i.e. "the biceps are too large" or "hips too narrow" or "head too small" or "pants not bulky enough") because noone outside of BIS has any idea what they want the uniforms in their set-in-2035-game to look like. Otherwise, take all this "teh MARPAT is all RONG and hear's a pic from *insert shooter* of how to fix FIGJAM" shit to the A2 suggestions thread and leave it there.

Edited by CameronMcDonald

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The artist who designed the Arma3 helmets deserves a raise, they are stunning. The pilot helmet is magnificent.

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Here we go again. I thought we'd killed this monster, but oshit, it's back. If anything, this post should be in the ArmA 2: OA Suggestions thread so it can be firmly ignored.

Aside from the officers, which even I admit are totally incorrect (nice Russian boots!), the OA riflemen, etc, look fine with regard to the actual ACU seam setup. The most glaring inaccuracy I can see are the pockets on the bottom of the blouse and probably the lack of a pen stall. Lol @ the tan velcro tape on Shepherd's pockets, while we're there.

Since you've managed to acquire the ability to time travel, please tell me how infantry in 2035 are going to look. Imma gonna extend this to another post you made recently, namely these shitpot antics. How do you know what the Crye under armour shirt is going to look like in 23 years time?

If you want to make comment on the models, speak in general anatomical terms (i.e. "the biceps are too large" or "hips too narrow" or "head too small" or "pants not bulky enough") because noone outside of BIS has any idea what they want the uniforms in their set-in-2035-game to look like. Otherwise, take all this "teh MARPAT is all RONG and hear's a pic from *insert shooter* of how to fix FIGJAM" shit to the A2 suggestions thread and leave it there.

Once again, CameronMcDonald, quick to flame, slow to understand the point of the post. ONE, it was in response to spotter. TWO, I used that as an example to illustrate a desire for a change in focus in ArmA 3. The purpose isn't just to nitpick on OA problems. The purpose is to highlight a lack of attention to accuracy in clothing, and, in context with what spotter said, to suggest that this also is a turn off for ArmA 2. Remember, Cameron, the title of the thread is "The trouble with getting people into ArmA". Incase you forgot. I wear the ACU uniform EVERY day. Don't fucking tell me how that uniform looks. I fucking know how it looks, and that aint it. In whatever BIS designs, all I am asking is that they stay true to what they are designing. That in whatever stuff is currently used, what is modern, that they focus on the accuracy of it. It was very well in the context of what spotter was saying. And, by the way, that other post has absolutely NOTHING to do with this thread, so stop spamming just to flame! It's a suggestion for additional uniforms. If you read the damn post, you would have seen the place where I said that I wasn't criticizing BIS's choice of uniform not suggesting a replacement of that uniform, so I was NOT telling BIS what their 2035 uniforms should be! NOR did I say that there was anything wrong with the MARPAT (and in case you don't know this either, Marpat stands for MARINE PATTERN. It's a fucking camouflage pattern, not the name of the uniform!). Oh, and I thought we buried this shit long ago. TOO FUCKING BAD if you don't like my suggestions. JUST FUCKING IGNORE THEM! I do NOT have to run my suggestions by you to get your APPROVAL! So why don't you leave your bullshit flaming for somewhere else!

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Quote
The purpose is to highlight a lack of attention to accuracy in clothing.
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That in whatever stuff is currently used, what is modern, that they focus on the accuracy of it.

The combat clothing BIS is designing for ArmA 3 is based in 2035. It doesn't exist yet. I'm amazed to see you asking for more "attention to accuracy" when you have no idea what 2035-era clothes look like in the ArmAverse. The uniforms of the day could be day-glo yellow and have zip-off trouser legs, for all you know. I'm sure you'll be the first to claim that the seams and/or pockets are in the wrong place, since you've seen what clothes look like in 2035. You might even post up a picture from a recent FPS to show how its models "come a lot closer to looking like the real thing than ArmA's models do." Loolz.

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I wear the ACU uniform EVERY day. Don't fucking tell me how that uniform looks. I fucking know how it looks, and that aint it.

Sadly, I haven't seen any 2012-era ACUs appear in any ArmA 3 screenshots yet, which makes your ACU subject matter expertise about as useful as a flyscreen in a submarine.

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In whatever BIS designs, all I am asking is that they stay true to what they are designing.

That makes absolutely no sense. It's hard to be not "be true" to something when you've conceived and designed it yourself from the ground up.

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(and in case you don't know this either, Marpat stands for MARINE PATTERN. It's a fucking camouflage pattern, not the name of the uniform!)

Duh. Also, your sarcasm detector is broken.

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TOO FUCKING BAD if you don't like my suggestions. JUST FUCKING IGNORE THEM! I do NOT have to run my suggestions by you to get your APPROVAL!

Feel free to ignore my posts too. I just like pointing out the gaps in your logic where I can construct 8 lane highways.

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The combat clothing BIS is designing for ArmA 3 is based in 2035. It doesn't exist yet. I'm amazed to see you asking for more "attention to accuracy" when you have no idea what 2035-era clothes look like in the ArmAverse. The uniforms of the day could be day-glo yellow and have zip-off trouser legs, for all you know. I'm sure you'll be the first to claim that the seams and/or pockets are in the wrong place, since you've seen what clothes look like in 2035. You might even post up a picture from a recent FPS to show how its models "come a lot closer to looking like the real thing than ArmA's models do

I guess that's exactly why BIS decided to gain some creativity freedom with the 2035 setting, and avoid rivets counters.

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The combat clothing BIS is designing for ArmA 3 is based in 2035. It doesn't exist yet. I'm amazed to see you asking for more "attention to accuracy" when you have no idea what 2035-era clothes look like in the ArmAverse. The uniforms of the day could be day-glo yellow and have zip-off trouser legs, for all you know. I'm sure you'll be the first to claim that the seams and/or pockets are in the wrong place, since you've seen what clothes look like in 2035. You might even post up a picture from a recent FPS to show how its models "come a lot closer to looking like the real thing than ArmA's models do." Loolz.

Cool story bro. I too wear camouflage at work. Sadly, I haven't seen any 2012-era ACUs appear in any ArmA 3 screenshots yet, which makes your ACU subject matter expertise about as useful as a flyscreen in a submarine.

That makes absolutely no sense. It's hard to be not "be true" to something when you've conceived and designed it yourself from the ground up.

Duh. Also, your sarcasm detector is broken.

Feel free to ignore my posts too. I just like pointing out the gaps in your logic where I can construct 8 lane highways.

So by your logic, no one should request any changes to anything, right? Because you can't base suggestions on problems with previous games, right? I mean, that's the core of what you're saying, right? I shouldn't ask for a focus on accuracy because this is ArmA 3. Just like no one should ask for better sounds because this is 2035, and gun sounds could change, right? Just like all the people asking for M4s and AKs in ArmA 3 should just shut up, because this is 2035, and that just doesn't belong, right? Just like no one should suggest that there be a focus on gameplay features like AI jumping over sandbags, because, after all, this is Arma 3, set in 2035, and for all we know soldiers may just not do that anymore, right? I'm sorry, but your argument falls apart. I never said that the ArmA 3 clothing was not accurate. You know that. I NEVER said that the seams or pockets of the 2035 clothing was in the wrong place. YOU are the only one who brought up seams and pockets (in reference to the ACUs of Operation Arrowhead). What I posted was in reference to ArmA 2 and Operation Arrowhead. And THAT was ONLY in response to PuFu's questioning me on how those pics were more accurate than ArmA 2's. And my post that he responded to was ONLY in response to spotter's post. All of that was in a SPECIFIC context. Consider it a little off topic if you will. None of that was ANY critique of ArmA 3. I actually LIKE the design in ArmA 3. The clothing actually looks more like clothing. Yes, I do ask for more attention to accuracy than what they've had in previous games. Because while most things were, not EVERYTHING was accurate (like the clothing in ArmA 2 and OA). Just because I ask for more accuracy than in previous games does not mean that I am saying that what has been seen so far is not accurate. Just like a lot of people, including myself, bring up animations a lot (within the context of this thread). That doesn't mean that I don't know that BIS has redone the animations. Doesn't mean that I am critiquing the new animation system (which of course I haven't seen). Remember, this is all in the context of this thread and spotter's post. I'm not saying that their current NATO uniform is not accurate to Crye gear or ACUs, or whatever. I never made a statement about the accuracy of things in ArmA 3. You keep taking my statements out of context, and apply them to ArmA 3 when I never did that. I never said what 2035 clothing should look like, so why are you still badgering that? So essentially you are trying to flame for something I never said. Nor did I post up a pic of how some other game comes closer to the real thing than ArmA 3. If you are referring to my other post, which I say again, has NOTHING to do with this thread, then you are clearing trying to twist what was said in that post. I never made a judgment on BIS's uniform. I was merely asking for additional clothing. I don't understand what the hell is so wrong with that. It's no different than someone asking for a certain weapon, or a certain vehicle, or a certain faction in ArmA 3. Why, because I post it, is it so wrong? How come you don't apply your same argument to some of those requests?

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You sound like a nagging old fishwife. :-P

Guys, I think we've found ArmA's only female player!

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Should I call a moderator? Couples councellor, perhaps? There's no need to insult anybody to have a constructive conversation.

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...

1) if you post in ArmA3 section people will automatically assume you are posting about ArmA3.

2) I think there are obvious differences in production value between the mentioned games and ArmA2. I think BI has established a good track record of improving their content. I also think each release was miles ahead of previous in many aspects.

Lack of tan Velcro on pockets does not a bad model make (like the Velcro is supposed to be there...).

3) this offtopic about ArmA2 uniforms has been going on long enough for anybody to lose track of it, you really cannot blame somebody who has not been on the forums for few days and did not follow it live when he opens up the thread and gets all the wrong impressions.

4) for the love of... learn to write in paragraphs.

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1) So, you should read everything out of context? When you come into a thread, and want to post, read the context, and then you actually have a reason to join in the conversation. Otherwise, you are posting just to illicit a response. A response to a post is specifically for that post and that conversation, regardless of what thread it's in

2) Yes, each release has been better than the last. That doesn't mean the last was without problems, though. And I really like your simplification of the issue. In reference to that post, the uniform there is much closer to the actual ACU than that in ArmA. It wasn't about tan velcro. Yeah, that's really wrong, just as the collar is really wrong, but that discussion is over.

3) The only reason it has gone on is because CameronMcDonald decided to jump in a conversation in which he was neither apart of from the beginning nor had any real reason to jump in. If CameronMcDonald wasn't so prone to flame, there wouldn't be an issue.

4) For the love of... I can write however I please.

@OnlyRazor No insulting started until CameronMcDonald posted. The conversation was constructive before. This shit always happens whenever CameronMcDonald responds to my posts. And, if someone challenges my post, I'm going to explain the point of the post. To continue to badger the issue is flaming and flame-baiting, which, by the way, is against the forum rules.

@rainbird, post reported.

Just to actually clarify. I absolutely do NOT want ArmA 3 to be another COD or any other game.

So, let's just drop the issue here. You're right about one thing, it's gone on long enough.

Edited by antoineflemming

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...The conversation was constructive before. This shit always happens whenever CameronMcDonald responds to my posts. And, if someone challenges my post, I'm going to explain the point of the post. To continue to badger the issue is flaming and flame-baiting, which, by the way, is against the forum rules.

I think it's fair to say that your posts have consisted of nothing but illogical ranting and swearing at people who don't agree with your half-baked opinions.

@rainbird, post reported.

You might want to look-up the definition of "fishwife" in that dictionary of yours.

Fishwives were notoriously loud and foul-mouthed as in the expression, To swear like a fishwife. One reason for their outspokenness is that their wares were highly perishable and so lost value if not sold quickly.

Sounds like an accurate description to me. But I await with interest on the admin's verdict. :)

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You sound like a nagging old fishwife. :-P

Guys, I think we've found ArmA's only female player!

:cc:

1) So, you should read everything out of context? When you come into a thread, and want to post, read the context, and then you actually have a reason to join in the conversation. Otherwise, you are posting just to illicit a response. A response to a post is specifically for that post and that conversation, regardless of what thread it's in

And when you post in a thread, you need to read the damn thread title, otherwise it is YOU who is out of context. And yes, you are.

2) Yes, each release has been better than the last. That doesn't mean the last was without problems, though. And I really like your simplification of the issue. In reference to that post, the uniform there is much closer to the actual ACU than that in ArmA. It wasn't about tan velcro. Yeah, that's really wrong, just as the collar is really wrong, but that discussion is over.

I for one care a lot more about other things than the ACU, or anything alike. Features over content, especially if BIS provides the tools for the community to do each screw and bolt. but each with it's own. besides, COD or BF or anything else you are praising each few days might be closer, but are far from exact either. Guess what, it is just as good/bad for me.

3) The only reason it has gone on is because CameronMcDonald decided to jump in a conversation in which he was neither apart of from the beginning nor had any real reason to jump in. If CameronMcDonald wasn't so prone to flame, there wouldn't be an issue.

Defensive...blaming it one everyone else then..childish

4) For the love of... I can write however I please.

Oh noes, really?

OK, let's just drop the issue here. You're right about one thing, it's gone on long enough.

revelation!

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Hope you guys are happy derailing multiple threads, and now you see why people have trouble getting into Arma? its because of behaviour like that.

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Anyway, back to the original discussion, rainbird, I guess we can agree to disagree on what accessible means. Either way, we both want the same thing (I think). ArmA to be more "usable" I guess, user-friendly maybe. We want a better UI. And, yes PuFu, features are more important than content. And I think that's what spotter was saying as well.

By the way, rainbird, I was trying to look up human-computer interaction and that book you were talking about, About Face. Most guys here who have played ArmA and are fans of it, and ask for more accessibility, aren't asking for the game to be dumbed down. But you said that in reference to HCI, that's what accessibility translates to. What exactly does About Face say about that? I actually sincerely want to know.

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What you utterly fail to comprehend is that the maps in all of the games you mentioned are mere flyspecks in comparison to ARMA maps.

wow, that was such a misfire...maps in Arma deserve a round of applause, however, no one is questioning the size of them.

also realize that making another clone of 'CODBFMWMOHCSS' may not lead to success ... remarkable games must stand out on it's own ...

I think it's pretty obvious that everyone here is already an arma fan and the last thing we want is Arma being someone's clone.

By graphics do you mean unit models or particle effects? If you're talking about vehicles, then ArmA is ahead of COD and BF3. If about units, then yeah, COD and BF3 are definitely ahead of ArmA. If talking about things like effects and decals, then ArmA is ahead of COD (of course BF3 is ahead of ArmA). Now, yeah, there's some 2D stuff that ArmA uses (like muzzle flash) and lighting that BF3 and COD have over ArmA.

Personally, i use a user made visual enhancements mod from Armaholic which i find better than original so i'd say there's room for improvement of effects.

As for the models i couldn't agree more. Vehicles are great but i never understood why the units look so mediocre. OPFOR is so-so but those Deltas (T1, spec ops, DevGru, whatever) are really mediocre. Army, Marines hardly impress either. Speaking of those Rangers from mw2-now that was awesome! As someone said, bf3 is much newer game (with much bigger budget probably too) so it's not fair to take bf3 units as a base for comparison.

I can't believe that my rig runs bf3 on ULTRA on 1080p with everything maxed out including post process and all effects without problem at min. ~35fps.

But hell, in Arma i often notice LOD changing when i zoom in on a distant building. I don't believe the release date could explain that.

The next issue for me is the camera. I can't stand the current location of the camera. It doesn't look like a true first person view. I don't care what sight I have on my weapon. The entire sight should ALWAYS be in front of my face. It should never be off my screen. It should always be within my field of view. Actually, this is more important than the character models. It's about immersion. And, on the note of weapons, I wish the hands would actually be holding the weapon the right way, and actually look like they're holding the weapon. It's another thing that COD and BF3 get right. Yeah, I know that they use floating hands. But those floating hands are still 3d models. They are still hands holding a weapon.

I agree for the hands, i wish they did it better but i don't think the camera's location is a problem...Or have i just gotten used to it so much?

The fourth important point is the interface. It does need overhaul. As I said here, there should be as little delay or interference as possible between the time you press a key, or want to issue an order, or do anything, and between when that event actually happens. So if I need to quickly order my men to drop to prone, then I should be able to do that without moving down a list. Two options to solve that are to keep the ability to assign keys to those commands and to add a radial menu (yes, it's quicker than ArmA 2's current menu)

Ok, now i got it. U actually argue for a more rapid interface and that's something i totally agree with. Assigning keys to particular commands is useful but i would pay extra 10e on top of the full price of A3 just to see a good FAST radial menu.

I don't wanna thread on any toes here, but i've always liked radial menu from OFP. Something fast like that (or, exactly like that) would greatly improve issuing of orders. Not all orders could be implement into such a menu but having those frequently used (like u mentioned, Stance commands) would be perfect. Certainly, moving down a list and/or scrolling just to issue every possible order is one of the major shortcomings. Sadly, chances for implementing a radial menu useful like the one in OPF are probably zero to none. At least i didn't see any hint that interface will be improved in the "confirmed features" list. Or did i miss it?

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I don't wanna thread on any toes here, but i've always liked radial menu from OFP. S[...]Sadly, chances for implementing a radial menu useful like the one in OPF are probably zero to none. At least i didn't see any hint that interface will be improved in the "confirmed features" list. Or did i miss it?

OFP never had a radial menu (i don't even remember a mod for it). I am pretty sure you are confusing things

The fact that it isn't on confirmed features doesn't matter all that much especially since A3 still about 8-12 months to go

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I don't wanna thread on any toes here, but i've always liked radial menu from OFP.

I assume you mean OFP2. We don't normally talk about this game here ;).

The thing about radial menus is they work good with joypad but are not necessarily optimal with mouse. I would consider either mouse gestures or just a normal menu (you know, with buttons grouped for fast, one-click access).

Another thing about radial menus is you are then dealing with menus several levels deep, since you have more commands than directions. With just button menu you can have few dozens of buttons in one overlay, with drop-down menus if necessary (for example presets for artillery strikes).

If radial menus were indeed more convenient you'd see them used in professional software more often, or in ArmA editor.

What I'd really love to see is removing the commands from 1-0 keys so they can be mapped for weapon selection, some actions or other things (at least 1-4 please!). Or moving weapon selection to some radial menu (not totally against them, they can work well if there are only 3-5 selectable items anyway).

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Even if ARMA3 would have a radial menu, which key is for it? Q? Then how is the lean key?

Besides, even you have assigned a key for radial menu, can you issue an order when you are moving? Maybe this will relate to your poor 4-key non-conflict keyboard? Oh, so you have a Mechanical keyboard, then at least 6 keys? Well, but how is your mouse?

If using OFP order mode, for most instance, you will only to remember x-x-x, only three number, which is so simple. And you can move you can shoot and you can make orders at the same time.

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Even if ARMA3 would have a radial menu, which key is for it? Q? Then how is the lean key?

I don't think we should get hung up on what key is used :) press & hold the ctrl key to display the radial would be fine. Release the ctrl key - radial disappears.

Besides, even you have assigned a key for radial menu, can you issue an order when you are moving? Maybe this will relate to your poor 4-key non-conflict keyboard? Oh, so you have a Mechanical keyboard, then at least 6 keys? Well, but how is your mouse?

If using OFP order mode, for most instance, you will only to remember x-x-x, only three number, which is so simple. And you can move you can shoot and you can make orders at the same time.

Previous ideas for radial menus do not involve removing the old style controls, only augmenting them with an optional extra method. But even so, I doubt that more than a very few people actually move AND shoot AND give orders all at the same time. Other ideas for GUI augmentation include voice recognition ordering, which would also suit.

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Arma essentialy needs two menus.

A radial one for quick access of frequently used commands that could be opened with holding a key (maybe TAB if BIS really gets rid of TAB targeting, TAB would be a good key for it) and can be navigated with the mouse.

And a old school complex menu that has all the fancy stuff we have now opened by another key (one of the windows keys? Or the key to the right of the right windows key? Or even the Backspace key!) that can be navigated with the mouse or the numbers while it is open.

Improvements with this method: we finally get a easy to understand and use radial menu, we free up all the number keys that now can be used for weapon selection or something else.

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Yeah,that's kinda what I way saying, I guess. For common commands, like the important ones that are used all the time, radial menus would be great. It could be a combination of both kinds of menus (radial and the standard, current one)

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