The trouble with getting people into Arma

[metalcraze 290]

Exactly. That's what makes ArmA experience truly shine for me.

I think maybe the problem is that on servers with respawn people don't treat everything just as "seriously" - while the game itself continues to do so - and so the experience becomes worse.

There's none of that sweet panic and wet pants when you suddenly hear Mi-24 coming at your squad from behind the hill and start running into the nearby forest and those 200m separating you from it seem like eternity.

[chiefredcloud 10]

As it's difficult to really get players to act as though their lives really were in mortal danger, I think a little simulated fear is a good thing :) I'm pretty sure that a lot of people make moves in games that do not tally with their real-life concerns. It's generally considered that ArmA must be as realistic as possible, and yet it's also expected to act realistically when the player does not.

I agree with your comment. However (with respect to your "real-life concerns) only an experiance of real combat can bring this to the table. Not to go on about War Stories, but it took me a while to play some of these combat simulators in the beginning. Reflections and old memories of my own experiance in combat and loosing one of your people sort of haunts you.

[wiggum2 31]

That's why I like to set-up the enemy AI to be extremely accurate, getting caught dawdling out in the open is certain death, when I'm hiding behind cover it gives the enemy AI opportunity to maneuver. I've seen enough combat footage to know that it's often very difficult for troops to establish exactly where enemy fire is coming from without exposing themselves to danger, and the only way to make ARMA believable is to make the AI realisticaly lethal.

Making the AI "extremely accurate" dosent make ArmA any more realistic.

Sure, it forces the player to stay in cover and be more careful because any crappy AK 400m away can mean death.

The terrain is generally to flat, so you have much less cover then in the real world. AI is unable to use buildings properly, there is no penetration sytem for buildings neither. Moral is not modelled for the AI and the player is always "stubborn" and "crack"...

Thats why i dont like "extremely accurate" AI, because there is much less cover then in real life and moral is not really modelled.

+ Coordination is a problem. Its impossible to get a AI company to assault a position properly because the AI is unable to coordinate multiple platoons, manage heavy weapon support ect. on it own.

[metalcraze 290]

Moral is not modelled for the AI

I think this is wrong. They certainly run away after taking losses - it was so since OFP.

[froggyluv 2130]

Best gaming I ever had has always been on one-life-only games :)

No question. I prefer 1 life only in any and all games.

[HyperU2 11]

As it's difficult to really get players to act as though their lives really were in mortal danger, I think a little simulated fear is a good thing :) I'm pretty sure that a lot of people make moves in games that do not tally with their real-life concerns. It's generally considered that ArmA must be as realistic as possible, and yet it's also expected to act realistically when the player does not.

There is real fear, the simulation of it is over done. I don't mind a little but if I'm shaking in real life I still know where I'm pointing my weapon and when to squeeze the trigger, when the game does it for you it throws off nature. Besides, I never shook during a fight, I shook after. That's the nature of it.

[chiefredcloud 10]

No question. I prefer 1 life only in any and all games.

You mean you want to play a campaign where once you die you can't play anymore? You don't plan on playing much do you? :cool:

[Dwarden 1124]

i will drop into this thread just quickly :)

lot of suggestions and wishes mentioned here are being worked on to various level of depth :)

so keep fingers crossed ...

in meanwhile help with testing 1.60 betas (not today, wait for next build) ...

[Tonci87 163]

next build must be something special...

[BobcatBob 10]

i will drop into this thread just quickly :)

lot of suggestions and wishes mentioned here are being worked on to various level of depth :)

so keep fingers crossed ...

In meanwhile help with testing 1.60 betas (not today, wait for next build) ...

awsesome!!!

[antoineflemming 14]

i will drop into this thread just quickly :)

lot of suggestions and wishes mentioned here are being worked on to various level of depth :)

so keep fingers crossed ...

in meanwhile help with testing 1.60 betas (not today, wait for next build) ...

That's great news! Thanks!

[echosixgolf 10]

The reasons why ArmA remains a niche of the games market is propbably for the same reasons I constantly drop in and out of playing ArmA:

1. Minimum/Recommended System Requirements Under-bidded- When I got the original ArmA, I fell just short of the recommended settings and it ran like crap. This was somewhat true when I bought ArmA 2 (I'm planning on getting the Mother of All Computers shortly before ArmA 3 drops). So the game went on the shelf until I upgraded computers and rediscovered it. I was intrigued and started playing...

2. Realism - One shot, one kill realism was not a new concept of gaming to me and is what first got me interested in the series. What was daunting to me and slowed my commitment to the game was the super AI. Even on the easiest of settings while playing as conservative as possible I was dying, a lot. In addition, I'm told I can drive or fly any vehicle, but what isn't said on the box is that I might need a private pilot liscense to do so without crashing, a lot. To make things worse was....

3. Single Player had Bugs - I think we can all agree on this about the initial launch of ArmA 2. So that leaves....

4. Multiplayer - Don't get me wrong this is the reason I've stuck with the game. The "units" were a rather interesting idea at first but hard to settle into. You either had "commands" who were far to rigid and filled with wikipedia warriors or on the other hand was chaotic gatherings. The few middle ground units for some reason never lasted for very long.

So looking back on what frustrated me (and sometimes continues to frustrate) it's no wonder it's hard to draw new players in. Especially with the success of COD and BF, which drew lots of people into the FPS market, and the fact that they are almost exact opposite of ArmA as far as game concept as a FPS.

[HyperU2 11]

2. Realism - One shot, one kill realism was not a new concept of gaming to me and is what first got me interested in the series. What was daunting to me and slowed my commitment to the game was the super AI. Even on the easiest of settings while playing as conservative as possible I was dying, a lot. In addition, I'm told I can drive or fly any vehicle, but what isn't said on the box is that I might need a private pilot liscense to do so without crashing, a lot. To make things worse was....

That's some of the things I want to ensure stay around. Even though I fully understand.

My style of play is generally single player in a multi player mission so that's a bit of an anomaly.

[echosixgolf 10]

That's some of the things I want to ensure stay around. Even though I fully understand.

My style of play is generally single player in a multi player mission so that's a bit of an anomaly.

I agree it should stay as well. I love the realism, I only bring it up because for many people it was a deal breaker since they didn't expect just how far into realism it went. I can say I was shocked. I remember the first time I got into one of the HMMWVs and was like "whoa sh##, they've got a BFT in here?" That's when I knew the developers took realism seriously and no wonder considering they make VBS2 for the military.

---------- Post added at 05:04 AM ---------- Previous post was at 04:56 AM ----------

Also on multiplayer is the mods. In units it was always hard staying on top of which one's your unit was using and getting newbies setup. Probably the biggest thing that scared people new to the game was walking them through ACE installs.

[Cripsis 10]

When I've played no-respawn MP missions with dudes who just got into OFP/ArmA everyone acted like the life was at stake.

There's no worse punishment than sitting for a hour or two waiting until the mission ends.

And yep - all of us survived for 3 hours, fighting against greater enemy numbers and BMPs (all while being nothing but an infantry squad). Well we died in the end when we bunched up too much in a forest and a single grenade took half of the squad out - then enemy infantry finished the job.

So it's quite possible to have what you describe. Even with new players.

That sounds awesome, I love gameplay that gets the heart pumping.

Best gaming I ever had has always been on one-life-only games :)

I went to my sister's not long back and got her (and my) kids to play CoD, but with one life each only. Holy crap you should have seen the difference in gameplay :D

Great idea, I'm going to ask my son to try that (he's a COD fanatic), should be interesting to watch.

There's none of that sweet panic and wet pants when you suddenly hear Mi-24 coming at your squad from behind the hill and start running into the nearby forest and those 200m separating you from it seem like eternity.

I hear you, IMHO no other game can deliver a adrenaline rush quite like ARMA.

Making the AI "extremely accurate" dosent make ArmA any more realistic.

It's not the perfect solution, but it's much better than having the enemy AI standing out in the open like wood ducks waiting for you to shoot them.

Sure, it forces the player to stay in cover and be more careful because any crappy AK 400m away can mean death.

It is possible for the AI to hit you first shot at that range with the mods and settings I use but it's extremely rare. If you want to have lengthy firefights against the enemy AI you need to give them some sting, otherwise it's just a endless series of short sharp engagements and that isn't how most firefights are in reality. In Helmand Province it's common for a handful of Taliban fighters to pin down platoon size units of coalition infantry until air or artillery support is called in, the only way I have found so far to simulate similar engagements in ARMA is to increase the AI's accuracy.

AI is unable to use buildings properly.

I have to disagree there, the AI definitely seeks cover in and fights from buildings.

Thats why i dont like "extremely accurate" AI, because there is much less cover then in real life.

I agree some areas are sparce of cover, I usually create missions in the areas that have plenty of cover.

+ Coordination is a problem. Its impossible to get a AI company to assault a position properly because the AI is unable to coordinate multiple platoons, manage heavy weapon support ect. on it own.

I don't play at the company level, re-inforced platoon size is the maximum for me, but I agree it would be difficult to micro-manage such large forces.

I think this is wrong. They certainly run away after taking losses - it was so since OFP.

Your right.

No question. I prefer 1 life only in any and all games.

I'm the same, sucks getting hit but it's worth the excitement of trying to survive.

i will drop into this thread just quickly :)

lot of suggestions and wishes mentioned here are being worked on to various level of depth :)

so keep fingers crossed ...

in meanwhile help with testing 1.60 betas (not today, wait for next build) ...

Great news, thanks.

Probably the biggest thing that scared people new to the game was walking them through ACE installs.

I threw an extreme hissy fit the first time, second time, and third time I tried to install ACE. Felt like an utter moron when I finally figured it out, but yeah it would be cool if the ACE options are in ARMA3 vanilla.

[wiggum2 31]

In addition, I'm told I can drive or fly any vehicle, but what isn't said on the box is that I might need a private pilot liscense to do so without crashing, a lot. To make things worse was....

I played many flight simulator games and still dont like to fly in Arma because the maps are far to small and i dont like the flight controls.

Many real pilots would crash too, just because ArmA is a FPS game with no real focus on the flight modell. ;)

---------- Post added at 09:02 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:58 AM ----------

If you want to have lengthy firefights against the enemy AI you need to give them some sting, otherwise it's just a endless series of short sharp engagements and that isn't how most firefights are in reality.

In my opinion, as more as i increase the accuracy of the AI, the shorter the most firefights get.

My own AI teammates die like flys and kill like aimbot rambos.

And you dont have to make them extrem accurate to get them move and command properly, thats what i like to use:

{
 if (side _x == east) then {
   _x setskill ["aimingAccuracy",0.15];
   _x setskill ["spotDistance",1.0];
   _x setskill ["spotTime",1.0];
   _x setskill ["courage",0.65]; 
   _x setskill ["commanding",0.65]; 
   _x setskill ["aimingShake",0.15];
   _x setskill ["aimingSpeed",0.45];
 };

[Cripsis 10]

In my opinion, as more as i increase the accuracy of the AI, the shorter the most firefights get.

My own AI teammates die like flys and kill like aimbot rambos.

I think the ZeusAI mod improves the AI's survivability which allows for sustained firefights, but for some reason if the human player tries to slug it out without using cover then the enemy AI quickly tears the human player to shreds. Perhaps this is because I set the enemy AI's sliders to max? To be honest I really don't understand the mechanics behind it but I just know it works really good for that kind of gameplay.

During contact if I order friendly AI to move to a position without cover the enemy AI quickly inflict casualties and the surviving friendlies automatically retreat back to cover. It's pretty cool.

[Tonci87 163]

May I quote myself?

Don't use Zeus_AI development has stoped a long time ago. The latest Versions even have introduced some nasty Bugs like AI getting stuck. You will propably experience even more Problems if you use it with the current Betas.

Stuff you need for challenging AI:

ACE, ASR_AI, powerfull CPU, carefully adjusted AI skill settings.

Does Zeus really work for you without all those bugs?

[Cripsis 10]

Does Zeus really work for you without all those bugs?

On very rare occassions my screen has frozen for perhaps 1 or 2 seconds (maybe this has more to do with my video settings then ZeusAI), but apart from that I haven't experienced any other problems.

[Tonci87 163]

On very rare occassions my screen has frozen for perhaps 1 or 2 seconds (maybe this has more to do with my video settings then ZeusAI), but apart from that I haven't experienced any other problems.

Then you are lucky, Zeus was awesome while it worked as intended, but the bugs killed it for me

[metalcraze 290]

^You probably didn't try to be a commander of an AI squad for too long then...

@Tonci: Those weren't bugs, those were features with good intentions but Protegimus took them too far, had to strip the mod of half of its pbos to make AI behave as I order it to again. Moved to ASR in the end. Combined with UPSMON the game really becomes greatly enjoyable in SP.

Edited October 6, 2011 by metalcraze

[froggyluv 2130]

I have to disagree there, the AI definitely seeks cover in and fights from buildings.

.

I'm glad you can see so many of the strengths of Arma's AI, I think many miss that. :)

On this issue I'd have to disagree tho. Watch some Iraqi war footage and you'll see how soldiers actually use indoors/windows for cover and shootouts. I had a great link but lost it.

These AI can go indoors, but they use very little indoor logic once there. If you go hide in a house upstairs and the AI saw you go in -they don't approach the situation in a realistic fashion -as neither do enemy AI that are running (defensively) to an indoor situation.

Problem is they use the same AI for outside as they do for tight spaces which just don't work very well.

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

The big breakthrough of ArmA making it more userfriendly was the implementation of the easy-to-use tools for updating your addons, the game launchers and the full-conversion mods such as ACE. Many Clan websites did their share to create good tutorials for newbies on where to start and installing all the required files for their servers.

I hope BIS sees and learns from this. It is up to them to come up with official tools that can achieve the same and by that standardise these processes even more. ArmA2 and user addons belong together like gold and diamonds.

As for ArmA2 I think we just have to take new players the fear of failure when first being confronted with all those "community must have's". Once they have found the right entrance door they certainly find all the help and instructions they need. :)

I know what I am talking about because I took a very long break from Multiplayer to concentrate on ArmA Movie Making. And so I had to become familiar with everything that was introduced by then.

Edited October 6, 2011 by Albert Schweitzer

[antoineflemming 14]

I'm glad you can see so many of the strengths of Arma's AI, I think many miss that. :)

On this issue I'd have to disagree tho. Watch some Iraqi war footage and you'll see how soldiers actually use indoors/windows for cover and shootouts. I had a great link but lost it.

These AI can go indoors, but they use very little indoor logic once there. If you go hide in a house upstairs and the AI saw you go in -they don't approach the situation in a realistic fashion -as neither do enemy AI that are running (defensively) to an indoor situation.

Problem is they use the same AI for outside as they do for tight spaces which just don't work very well.

Well the AI aren't designed for close quarters anything. Which is a problem. If you can get something working for close quarters, then it'll pretty much work for long distance. If BIS would begin to focus on close quarters gameplay in addition to long distance, we'd have smoother controls/fluid movement because it takes that for close quarters gameplay to work.

[metalcraze 290]

The problem with buildings and AI is that AI will never enter them ever chasing you (unless with some heavy UPSMON scripting and even then nothing is guaranteed).

I'm still disappointed that BIS made so many buildings enterable and usable by the infantry but AI doesn't even have an idea those buildings are in the game.