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Spokesperson

Wall Street Occupation

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See, this is the problem. People think that true free market capitalism is the system that we have now, so they blame the market. The fact is that we don't have free market capitalism right now. We have crony capitalism in which the government gets its hands into nearly every facet of the economy, distorting the market and mucking things up. Real free markets work.

Completely free markets are not possible and not even desirable.

If you leave a market to itself without regulations the constituent agents will abolish it themselves anyway through cartels and monopolies (as has been the case so many times before). (Temporary) Laissez faire is good for some companies/capitalists as it will strengthen their market position at the expense of other companies while the latter prefer regulations. You're just picking sides in an internal dispute within the ruling class.

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Ron Paul, I believe is a viable presidential solution; however, sometimes I question his world politics. There are some major issues here in the US, indeed; but we cannot forget the global impact of our decisions either. I am truly still undecided who is the best candidate right now, but I do know who I definitely hope to not see after 2012.

agree.

What I am truly concerned about is how everyone is so quick to rise up in arms for a revolution. I cannot see any good that would come from a violent revolution. All this rhetoric is what has been preached from people like Mao, Che, Lenin, etc. And look where those “leaders†led their nations. In each of those examples, thousands and even millions of people had to be “exterminated†for their visions to come to life.

all the good and bad revolutions started and finished with blood (in many cases), not only the bad. French revolution for example, and it was bloody as hell. im no trying to say we really need an armed revolution, and with all the petty bourgeois we have in the western world i highly doubt will ever come, im just saying that you are technically wrong. as many times happens to me :)

Edited by ***LeGeNDK1LLER***

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Socialism and democracy don't exclude each other, it's in fact the opposite, you cant have democracy without socialism....

Not Lenins Face anymore, huh?

Democracy is indispensable to socialism. - Vladimir Lenin

And Rosa Luxemburg wrote their pipe dreams based on that in a serie of articels in 1900 for the Newspaper "New Age"(New Age Esoteric goes hand in hand with communism), iam sure you are know that.

without you will have just 1% Ruling 99% by pure market force.

"Pure market forces". Woow, sounds so creepy. Like "The Dark forces of trading will get you".

Hey, it is able for just one of you guys to do state function spontaniosly?

No, ofcourse not.

But you can go to the evil market and can make a more effective choice, in buying and supporting bussiness or earn money to support people.

There is something fundamently wrong with the understanding of people what markets are, what capitalism means. If you buy rotten fruits by a Marketer, who do you blame if you get sick? The Marketer or the Market?

People still running around and think a socialistic government is a good king from an olden times story.

But the government is a more dangerous exploiter than a Company can ever be!

Who killed political prisoners in Gulags and labour camps? The Government. Who arrested People to bring them their? The Government. Who could take your property by force? The Government.

Is there just one example in which the "Market" does that things?

---------- Post added at 08:10 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:02 PM ----------

Don't Let Soros Hijack Occupy Wall Street: Webster Tarpley Reports

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People still running around and think a socialistic government is a good king from an olden times story.

But the government is a more dangerous exploiter than a Company can ever be!

Who killed political prisoners in Gulags and labour camps? The Government. Who arrested People to bring them their? The Government. Who could take your property by force? The Government.

Is there just one example in which the "Market" does that things?

i guess noone here is dreaming for the old communism coming back.

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If you leave a market to itself without regulations the constituent agents will abolish it themselves anyway through cartels and monopolies (as has been the case so many times before).

Utter nonsense. Without government forces of coercion, cartels never last and monopolies rarely last. The market is too dynamic.

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i guess noone here is dreaming for the old communism coming back.

But you hear all the time about "some new kind of socialism" and it works to decept people. The hole Green Revolution Thing and Hardcore Environment Movement is a troyan horse to install a communist system.

Dont be so naiv, communism doesn't come back with stalin mustache, hammer and sickle and this stuff. But with a nice yuppie face that ask you ,,wanna something for free'' ?

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But you hear all the time about "some new kind of socialism" and it works to decept people. The hole Green Revolution Thing and Hardcore Environment Movement is a troyan horse to install a communist system.

Dont be so naiv, communism doesn't come back with stalin mustache, hammer and sickle and this stuff. But with a nice yuppie face that ask you ,,wanna something for free'' ?

Nothing in socialism is for free, socialism is about giving something to others in case you have more than enough. Socialism can work only as long as everone has for more than he needs. Ang again...look at Norway and sweden...it works...and you can still be a Billioneer in socialism...you just have to payback your part to society.

The benefit: you can live outside of a guarded millionaire ghetto just among other citizens without having to fear any extraodnary safety risks.

Edited by Beagle

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Dont be so naiv, communism doesn't come back with stalin mustache, hammer and sickle and this stuff. But with a nice yuppie face that ask you ,,wanna something for free'' ?

Don't you like to download addons for free? :rolleyes:

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Don't you like to download addons for free? :rolleyes:
Whenever you say "free addon" you already paid for it when you buy the base software.

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The addon example here in these forums is a good example of what I believe an ideal society could be. There is a capitalist/free market society that had developed, produced, and sold the game for a fair market value. And for the free downloads that addon makers provide, this is a product of thier own free will to want to personally apply their talent only to make a good product better. So, these downloads are something of their own charity and good will.

If this was a socialist or communist site then each addon maker would be forced to make the addons whether they wanted to or not. Oh and... all of us would be forced to contribute whether we wanted to or not, despite our knowledge and ability (like me).

P.S. - to the addon makers reading this, Yes this is a round about THANK YOU for your selfless contributions

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Whenever you say "free addon" you already paid for it when you buy the base software.

I understand what you're saying and to a certain degree it's true but I think its discrediting the people who take their time to make stuff for you, because you know it’s for free, you can’t deny it. You could have a pirated game and still be able to download my addons for free because I as an addon-maker didn't get a single penny from you or BIS so I don't really care. You can use my models how you like and I don’t care.

If you said that you paid for every addon by purchasing the game, it would have to be the most underpriced game in the world because just the models on Taviana would probably cost you more then 1000 bucks if I was to sell them :wink_o:

THANK YOU for your selfless contributions

You're welcome, for me personally making models for commercial use has no feeling, I just do it because I have to, but to be told "thank you" for making it from a person’s heart is something that money can't buy. :smile:

Edited by -Martin-

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Whenever you say "free addon" you already paid for it when you buy the base software.

I don't understand this comment -the modder or addonmaker is in a sense giving you free art for the house you bought -without anything in return except appreciation. Buying the house doesn't entitle you to this extra work.

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I was not thinking about ArmA in specific and I was not thinking about user made addons in this example...this was just a general example. Don't forget that BIS gave us free addons too.

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Beagle,

Right! In a free market society, BIS is able and willing to give those free addons, because (1) they can afford to do it, (2) have the freedom to do it, and (3) do it because it is a win/win: they keep the customers they already have more loyal and we (the customers) benefit from what they give us.

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I was not thinking about ArmA in specific and I was not thinking about user made addons in this example...this was just a general example. Don't forget that BIS gave us free addons too.

But we gave them publicity, one of the best user communities that I've ever seen and kept their games alive for a very long time. In short BIS needs us and we need BIS, as karensman08 said, we each benefit from eachother, and so far this relationship seems to be working out really well.

But I don't have anything against BIS and I'm glad to support them buy buying their games and making addons because I know that aren't like other companies that just want to suck my money with poor quality products.

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In a free market society, BIS is able and willing to give those free addons, because (1) they can afford to do it, (2) have the freedom to do it, and (3) do it because it is a win/win: they keep the customers they already have more loyal and we (the customers) benefit from what they give us.

Pretty sure that could happen under any economic model if the propieter so chooses.

And what system does the mighty User addon fall under -communism? Free stuff for all for the greater good of the community?

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The addon example here in these forums is a good example of what I believe an ideal society could be. There is a capitalist/free market society that had developed, produced, and sold the game for a fair market value. And for the free downloads that addon makers provide, this is a product of thier own free will to want to personally apply their talent only to make a good product better. So, these downloads are something of their own charity and good will.

If this was a socialist or communist site then each addon maker would be forced to make the addons whether they wanted to or not. Oh and... all of us would be forced to contribute whether we wanted to or not, despite our knowledge and ability (like me).

P.S. - to the addon makers reading this, Yes this is a round about THANK YOU for your selfless contributions

Froggyluv,

see my earlier post...

In the original idea of American society, people are willing to give of themselves to help the community/society. It is not for personal gain or because the government is requiring you to give that of yourself. It is why in the history of wars where there was American involvement, people have looked to the US for aid. The American "heart" for people has always been great. There was a story about a french man when he was boy who could remember the differences between the Americans in WW2 and the Nazi Germans. He remembered the Americans because a soldier had simply given him a Hershey bar when the Nazis took everything. It is this same mentality that is in Iraq and Afghanistan today, soccer balls and candy being donated to troops by the American public purely for the reason to be given to the children of those countries. It is a sense of selflessness not commonly seen in socialist or communist countries.

Edited by karensman08

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Ahh good! Good to know free market can still thrive under stinky socialist Europe :p

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A so called free market does not lie in the interest of companies that have achieved monopolies. And despite of that you get an oligarchy or more precisely a plutocracy of capitalists that has to be protected through a monopoly of force exercised by a police force. Who would give away labor voluntarily? Completely free markets are dope dreams. Capitalism and all class societies rely on violence.

If this was a socialist or communist site then each addon maker would be forced to make the addons whether they wanted to or not. Oh and... all of us would be forced to contribute whether we wanted to or not, despite our knowledge and ability (like me).

BS, that's some irrational stereotype you got from some movie or story about bad uncle Stalin who ate shot children. Where did you get that from, you're just making up things without thinking about what you're saying.

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Nothing in socialism is for free, socialism is about giving something to others in case you have more than enough. Socialism can work only as long as everone has for more than he needs. Ang again...look at Norway and sweden...it works...and you can still be a Billioneer in socialism...you just have to payback your part to society.

The benefit: you can live outside of a guarded millionaire ghetto just among other citizens without having to fear any extraodnary safety risks.

The USSR was socialist. Hence the name, Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. In a socialist country the state owns the means of the production.

Neither Norway or Sweden are socialist nations.

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The USSR was socialist. Hence the name, Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. In a socialist country the state owns the means of the production.

Neither Norway or Sweden are socialist nations.

Do you know what "social democracy" means?

Even in the german constitution there is article Nr 14, and as far as i know norway and sweden have similar articles.

Art 14

(1) Das Eigentum und das Erbrecht werden gewährleistet. Inhalt und Schranken werden durch die Gesetze bestimmt.

(2) Eigentum verpflichtet. Sein Gebrauch soll zugleich dem Wohle der Allgemeinheit dienen.

(3) Eine Enteignung ist nur zum Wohle der Allgemeinheit zulässig. Sie darf nur durch Gesetz oder auf Grund eines

Gesetzes erfolgen, das Art und Ausmaß der Entschädigung regelt. Die Entschädigung ist unter gerechter Abwägung

der Interessen der Allgemeinheit und der Beteiligten zu bestimmen. Wegen der Höhe der Entschädigung

steht im Streitfalle der Rechtsweg vor den ordentlichen Gerichten offen.

translation:

Art 14

(1) The ownership and inheritance is guaranteed. Content and limits are determined by the laws.

(2) Property entails obligations. Its use shall also serve the public good.

(3) Expropriation is permitted only for the public good. You may only by law or pursuant to a

Law made​​, the nature and extent of the compensation. The compensation is fair consideration under

to determine the interests of the public and stakeholders. Because of the amount of compensation

stands in case of dispute, recourse to the ordinary courts.

and don't forgt who invented social democracy...it was not Lenin nor Stalin.

Edited by Beagle

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Spokesman,

Actually, I am going off personal knowledge after having spoke to several people. Brittons who now are realizing that government run medical care is not all that it is cracked up to be. Iranians who have defected to the US after the Iatola took over and began running the nation under communist models.

All these nations that have tried to follow the communist model have only resorted in having that even less than 1% power elite and everyone else becomes no better than the US's bottom of the lower class with no chance to ever become anything better. Oh... unless, they can find that right in to the social elite. Though this is true is some aspects of the US, it is not the only way.

I can agree that the true communist ideal would be a perfect utopian society, however, some type A personality will always want to be on top and will realize that the only way he/she can do so is to continue to oppress all others.

Edited by karensman08

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Do you know what "social democracy" means?

Social democracy and socialism are two different things.

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