Wall Street Occupation

[st_dux 26]

"Politicians" favour a minority of their constituency because they are criminaly paid to do so.

I don't think we could really do anything to stop the political contributions. Even if it were legally limited in some way (it usually is, technically), the corporations will find other ways to contribute ("back room" deals, etc.). The solution, then, is to take away government's ability to create corporate welfare. Disallow them the power to conduct bailouts and the like. Restrict the ability of government and corporations wouldn't have the incentive to spend vast amounts of cash to persuade them.

Well, that's way too simplistic. Monopolies and oligopolies happen most of the time without any state intervention, as the result of the market competition, when companies have grown to the point that other competitors have disappeared or have been bought. Even defendors of the liberalism theories acknowledge this fact, because on a competitive market, profit tends to disappear because it is shared by a great amount of companies. Then, governement must intervene to defend market economy and free competition.

Not so. In reality, monopolies that arise naturally from the market almost never last very long, and they can only come to exist through extreme efficiency. During the (usually short) period of time that it exists, a market-based monopoly is still kept in check constantly by the threat of potential competition. The only monopolies that are dangerous for the market are coercive monopolies, and those only exist with the help of the government. Wherever you find a monopoly, you will almost always find some law or regulation that is keeping competition out.

To make it short, freedom doesn't exist in the jungle, but the survival of the fittest. Maybe you should read Thomas Hobbes, and thus understand that without laws, at the state of nature, the human is in a perpetual state of war. "Man is a wolf to man". The law of the market is the same : it needs regulations and law enforcements to defend the free competition on the markets.

That's true, but Minutemen wasn't suggesting we live in a state of nature. He maintains the non-violence principle, which is expressed through property rights and contract law. As long as those two things are in-tact (and truthfully contract law is subsumed under the concept of property rights), society will be free. In general, any law that strengthens property rights makes society more free, and any law that detracts from them (most laws) make society less free.

@WeaponsFree:

You make the assumption that people should be equal or that life should be fair. At no point in world history has either been true.

[hellfire257 3]

You're very quotable Dux, you should be proud of that.

[gammadust 12]

I don't think we could really do anything to stop the political contributions. Even if it were legally limited in some way (it usually is, technically), the corporations will find other ways to contribute ("back room" deals, etc.). The solution, then, is to take away government's ability to create corporate welfare. Disallow them the power to conduct bailouts and the like. Restrict the ability of government and corporations wouldn't have the incentive to spend vast amounts of cash to persuade them.

(...)

It is better then to start thinking about it, there simply is no way a society can even be thought about without equating some form of government along with it.

We can't simply dismiss the government function just because it is not functioning the way it is supposed to. Its like dismissing a car clutch because it makes the car go backwards instead of forwards. There is no way around it.

We have a murderer around, and they are so many, that justice cannot cope with them. Would we simply scrap the law that frames that crime? That does not make sense.

We need a functioning Government! People want a functioning Constitution! People want justice!

Those are some good phrases to take down there in Liberty Park and many other cities across the states.

[st_dux 26]

We need a functioning Government!

I agree. I wasn't saying that we should get rid of government altogether, but if it were restricted to its proper function it wouldn't be able to meddle in seedy corporate affairs.

[Beagle 684]

Don't confuse gouvernment with administration...Belgium just proofed that you can have no gouvernment for 15 months without any problems. All that happened in that time was no new laws and no new regulations. Some Belgiens already tend to say now that this time without gouvernment was the most stable one in the last 5 years...administration just keept on working as usual.

[Spokesperson 0]

Protests spread to many other cities.

San Francisco:

[walker 0]

Hi all

Noam Chomsky explains why the USA is falling apart, he starts with a Quote from:

Adam Smith's: The Wealth of Nations Book III

"All for ourselves, and nothing for other people, seems, in every age of the world, to have been the vile maxim of the masters of mankind."

and how it is promulgated today by a process of: bailouts for the welfare queens of wall street, while pursuing "Austerity" by defunding public schooling and social safety nets; pay freezes and tax increases for the poor and middle class while ensuring sunset tax policies for the super rich.

iebK7VVDayY

Interesting part about the correlation between wealth and senate votes.

And the Gold Bubble in pictures explaining where your pension money is being siphoned off via stock bubbles:

http://finance.ninemsn.com.au/newsbusiness/motley/8355254/the-gold-bubble-in-pictures

The next bubble your pension will be siphoned off with is US Bonds and the Dollar bubble. You will of course pay the person who runs your pension pot a vast bonus for the privilege!

Kind Regards walker

Edited October 4, 2011 by walker

[mrcash2009 0]

Heres a 6 part radio show by Webster Tarpley that covers allot about this subject not only the current events but some solutions and ideas and home truths, take it as you find of course:

7W-NCMjfvRw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7W-NCMjfvRw&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL

Note: link is direct to the 6 part play list to make it easier.

Edited October 4, 2011 by mrcash2009

[NoRailgunner 0]

Does money solve problems?

http://www.jpmorganchase.com/corporate/Home/article/ny-13.htm

[walker 0]

Hi NoRailgunner

Good find. I wonder if it could be considered as bribing a police force?

Of course the 4 million is peanuts compared to the Billions that poor and middle class Americans pay for US police service wages. Does the 4 Million mean that Police will be dragged off protecting US tax payers homes to prevent them from voicing their opinion and the right to free assembly?

What is betting the republican congress votes in a policy to amend the constitution and prohibit free assembly?

Kind Regards walker

Edited October 4, 2011 by walker

[Spokesperson 0]

Heres a 6 part radio show by Webster Tarpley that covers allot about this subject not only the current events but some solutions and ideas and home truths, take it as you find of course:

7W-NCMjfvRw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7W-NCMjfvRw&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL

Note: link is direct to the 6 part play list to make it easier.

Very good points, it's important that that kind of ideas get influence in the movement.

"The whole idea of this group think, the consensus, it essentially leads to paralysis. /.../ This is not effective, we saw it in the 9-11 truth commission. Their main concern is the subjective experience of going to the meeting for the person. This can't be the main focus, the main focus is the outward projection of the vital ideas, that society needs to get out of a life and death crisis."

There has to be leadership that can organize and utilize the full potential of the masses.

[dysta 10]

Hi NoRailgunner

Good find. I wonder if it could be considered as bribing a police force?

Of course the 4 million is peanuts compared to the Billions that poor and middle class Americans pay for US police service wages. Does the 4 Million mean that Police will be dragged off protecting US tax payers homes to prevent them from voicing their opinion and the right to free assembly?

What is betting the republican congress votes in a policy to amend the constitution and prohibit free assembly?

Kind Regards walker

I doubt if police are tend to be "offically" bribed. Even they did, the National Guard or FBI won't be happy to see this.

[dmarkwick 261]

Congresses approval rating is below 12%, so where are the safeguards that ought to stop stagnant politicians from asphyxiating the country? Does it need to get worse, do the public need to actively step up and remove these people? How is this supposed to happen?

[Minutemen 10]

Heres a 6 part radio show by Webster Tarpley that covers allot about this subject not only the current events but some solutions and ideas and home truths, take it as you find of course.

I think Tarpley makes very good analyses about the middle east and the obama administration, but he has no idea about economics! Thats why i cancelt my World Crisis Radio Subcribtion, this man is still one of this socialist students in his hearth. And his BS about the free market, seriosly, i could puke if i hear that.

Roosevelt, roosevelt, roosevelt. BlawBlawBlawblaw

[*LK1* 10]

skip

iebK7VVDayY

another smoked left libertarian blogger i wouldn't give him to much att

oh wait, he's not ;):D

[karensman08 10]

Just a quick question to all the "revolutionists" in this forum. Is this the solutions to your "revolution"? ...see linked video clip concerning the Weather underground from the 1960's.

I just hope people wake up and realize and remember what is right and what is wrong, and actually stand up for what is truly right.

I know, I don't want to live in a society where I could be "exterminated" because I refuse to agree with the ideals imposed upon me by a central government commity. This is not liberty or freedom, whatever catch word you want to try and use today. Anyone there (at any of these rallies) should be greatful that they have the ability to speak what they want and at most receive some pepper spray or a few bumps and bruises for causing public disorder. I feel pretty certain that none of them feel the fear of execution or "extermination" or even "re-education camps."

Though I may even agree with some of the statements being made at these rallies, be careful what you people are asking for. Be careful what a "revolution" may lead to; and who or what could come to power in the end.

Instead let's look at how we fix the issues with the systems that are already in place and get back to the morales and ideals that made the United States a great country and even a model that many other countries in the world are aspiring to.

[*LK1* 10]

probably the "revolutionarists" are angry cuz they leave in the most rich country in the world and they are facing the bankrupt.

the government, aka the establisment.., is asking at the poor people and the middle class to pay for the crisis but they dont want to cut the pentagon spending and everything concerns the defense. just an example. the debt is increasing drammatically but the u.s.a. will replace the odiern jets with UFO and bullets with laser weapon in a decade maybe...;)

Edited October 4, 2011 by ***LeGeNDK1LLER***

[gammadust 12]

I think Tarpley makes very good analyses about the middle east and the obama administration, but he has no idea about economics! Thats why i cancelt my World Crisis Radio Subcribtion, this man is still one of this socialist students in his hearth. And his BS about the free market, seriosly, i could puke if i hear that.

Roosevelt, roosevelt, roosevelt. BlawBlawBlawblaw

Yes... he does not follow the schools of economic thought which brought about the current crisis. "Free market" is a total misnomer, it is "free" given very strict conditions which always favour big capital, small investors or business risk takers are as caged as a domestic bird is.

Socialist?... no prejudice against it! I am totally social over finance!

EDIT: Finance, economics, politics, everything at the human service. Turn this around and you get what you observe today!

[Beagle 684]

Socialism will come back... it's already on its way and it wil not bear lenins face anymore. Just have a look at the scandinavic nations...they have a near perfect socialism for more than 70 years now. It's a mistake to lug in North Korea, Cuba and soviet Union al the time when someone mentibnes Socialism. Socialism and democracy don't exclude each other, it's in fact the opposite, you cant have democracy without socialism....without you will have just 1% Ruling 99% by pure market force.

Edited October 4, 2011 by Beagle

[*LK1* 10]

the word free should be replaced with the word anarchic...that's how the market is right now. is the law of the jungle.

[nettrucker 142]

Hi Karensman08

I just hope people wake up and realize and remember what is right and what is wrong, and actually stand up for what is truly right.

People are mostly aphatic, until they have something to eat. Most deny the truth because the truth is a very uncomfortable thing.

Even if people stand up and protest . . . the chance of a peaceful change in the current USA power structure is very unlikely to happen. The system suffers from systematic corruption. They are so powerful that they can even manipulate the votes of the presidential elections for e.g. 2004 Does that ring a bell to you?

I know, I don't want to live in a society where I could be "exterminated" because I refuse to agree with the ideals imposed upon me by a central government commity.

In case you're American . . . well in my opinion you are already living in such kind of society. Things have changed so drastically in the USA and it is well hidden from the American public. Brainwashed by the maimstream media, people are miss informed all over the world.

This is not liberty or freedom, whatever catch word you want to try and use today. Anyone there (at any of these rallies) should be greatful that they have the ability to speak what they want and at most receive some pepper spray or a few bumps and bruises for causing public disorder.

yeah but this opportunity or right of free speech and protest is actually oppressed all over the world. Watch the G20 summit Toronto. We are becoming more and more police states. And it is going to get worse even though people protest peacefully.

Time will come where the social unrest will grow so big that a peaceful solution won't be possible anymore.

Instead let's look at how we fix the issues with the systems that are already in place and get back to the morales and ideals that made the United States a great country and even a model that many other countries in the world are aspiring to.

How are you gonna do that? Care to explain?

I've asked in some of my replies in this topic that people would post some suggestion or solution how to fix these problems but noone ever replied to that.

That is because we are more debating the problem rather than posting suggestions or solutions.

Well if it was me I what do exactly the same what Ron Paul proposes, he seems to me the only one who actually knows what he's doing or talking about. He's the last chance for the USA to avvoid a catastrophe, in my opinion. I've seen several debates and all other canditates are a no go.

In any case it's up to the American people. The trouble is that you are asleep behind the wheel.

Moreover I personally believe that the votes are going to be manipulated in case Ron Paul would win. I know it's going to turn out that way and it saddens me.:mad:

[st_dux 26]

Yes... he does not follow the schools of economic thought which brought about the current crisis. "Free market" is a total misnomer, it is "free" given very strict conditions which always favour big capital, small investors or business risk takers are as caged as a domestic bird is.

See, this is the problem. People think that true free market capitalism is the system that we have now, so they blame the market. The fact is that we don't have free market capitalism right now. We have crony capitalism in which the government gets its hands into nearly every facet of the economy, distorting the market and mucking things up. Real free markets work.

[Spokesperson 0]

Just a quick question to all the "revolutionists" in this forum. Is this the solutions to your "revolution"? ...see linked video clip concerning the Weather underground from the 1960's.

I just hope people wake up and realize and remember what is right and what is wrong, and actually stand up for what is truly right.

I know, I don't want to live in a society where I could be "exterminated" because I refuse to agree with the ideals imposed upon me by a central government commity. This is not liberty or freedom, whatever catch word you want to try and use today. Anyone there (at any of these rallies) should be greatful that they have the ability to speak what they want and at most receive some pepper spray or a few bumps and bruises for causing public disorder. I feel pretty certain that none of them feel the fear of execution or "extermination" or even "re-education camps."

Though I may even agree with some of the statements being made at these rallies, be careful what you people are asking for. Be careful what a "revolution" may lead to; and who or what could come to power in the end.

Instead let's look at how we fix the issues with the systems that are already in place and get back to the morales and ideals that made the United States a great country and even a model that many other countries in the world are aspiring to.

Hey come on, what else happened in the 60ies? Students were shot point blank at protests, or murdered in their beds like bright young people like Fred Hampton. Political assassinations targeted against the opposition occured from month to month. Do you think we have that climate today? Are all right-wingers supporters of political assasinations just because they re-elected those governments???

Also, the weather underground were anarchists like Baader Meinhof in Germany. They targeted individuals rather than the system itself. If the democracy movement is to be successful the influence of anarchists has to be reduced, but as a starting point all kinds of people will have to work together until some kind of elected popular congress can take charge of the movement.

Good documentary about the Weather Underground, you get a bit more nuanced view than you would in corporate (anti everything anti-corporate) documentaries:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LV7GSff4fIA

[karensman08 10]

nettrucker,

First off, yes I am American.

I am in agreeance with you, I do often question our own voting system and whether or not it is "rigged." Even then, many of the politicians who get to the level they are in, I sometimes wonder if they had to have some sort of affiliations. However, this is all conspiracy beliefs, which most often don't hold up well in arguments.

In the past several elections here it has really begun to appear that both political parties are aiming in the same direction. Only, that one is looking at more of a fast paced direct shot and the other is slower paced over time.

Ron Paul, I believe is a viable presidential solution; however, sometimes I question his world politics. There are some major issues here in the US, indeed; but we cannot forget the global impact of our decisions either. I am truly still undecided who is the best candidate right now, but I do know who I definitely hope to not see after 2012.

What I am truly concerned about is how everyone is so quick to rise up in arms for a revolution. I cannot see any good that would come from a violent revolution. All this rhetoric is what has been preached from people like Mao, Che, Lenin, etc. And look where those “leaders†led their nations. In each of those examples, thousands and even millions of people had to be “exterminated†for their visions to come to life.

It is easy today for people to say give me this and give me that because it is a “rightâ€. But, resources are not infinite and not everything can be a right. Thus far, capitalism has been the best and most successful economic structure tried in the world. Socialism and communism have nothing but failed and resulted in too many people suffering.

Most of the so-called 1% that everyone keeps saying, have actually worked their asses off to become successful. I do agree that there are many who have also come to their position by less than honorable means; but these groups on Wall St now are wanting to punish all and punish the hard workers (the middle class).

The one who will truly gain anything through all this is the loiterer and lower class citizens who just want the freebies. Well I do not believe in freebies. Nothing is for free. Even in a communist society, you sacrifice all the good possibilities there are so that you can have your "free" healthcare and your "right to work". Why should the loiterer and the hard laborer be handed the exact same life style? How is that right?

History has only proven that a communist society only breeds complacency. And if someone does become complacent what does the centralized comity (the even less than 1% power elite) do to correct such behavior?

I guess my point overall is, be extremely cautious of what you ask for, you just might get it. At least in capitalism, I and anyone around me has the ability to become a part of that "1%"; I would just have to choose to do it, find my talents, apply those talents, and work my ass off to get there. Look at the successful millionaire actors and actresses who there “supporting†the Wall St protests. They found their talents and applied them and made something of themselves, but yet they will go on the attack against the small business owners who have been successful and are providing jobs and income and providing goods and services to the rest of society.

[gammadust 12]

(...)

How are you gonna do that? Care to explain?

I've asked in some of my replies in this topic that people would post some suggestion or solution how to fix these problems but noone ever replied to that.

That is because we are more debating the problem rather than posting suggestions or solutions.

(...)

This is an important issue you raise. I have some thoughts on it, and I will be long, spare me the TL'DR comments.

Certainly one needs to describe the problem before one starts developing solutions for it. The silence over solutions is very understandable from where I am at.

Individually, I can not claim to be authoritative in whatever solution I may present, firstly because for one to gain any shadow of authority in whatever subject one must understand it comprehensively, secondly the solution needs to be comprehended and benefit from wide support.

Authority on given subject - In my opinion the only way to achieve the this is by cientificaly studying the subject (be it economics, social, communication, etc). I say "cientifically" because it is demonstrably the best tool to unambiguously define reality. I am therefore laying on reality (or nature) the ultimate authority on anything that surrounds Men. This relates to a certain pragmatism.

Solutions' wide support - To gain support for a certain measure, people must really comprehend it and not jump into bandwagons mindlessly. Also whichever solution one individually comes to, it also has to take in account a collective concern for it to be able to conquer the best support possible. Solutions which do not pass this filter will certainly face trouble from the get go.

So this is the problem and how I would describe it individually, but to put it now more in collective terms: People need places were the discussion may occur with the objective of providing a collective conscience and be able to embbed it in our rationale for following solutions. Without this place, without this collective conscience we are less able to respond to a basic requirement.

From apathy > to recognition of the existence of a problem > to the comprehension of the problem > to obtaining unifying solutions of the problem > putting the solutions to practice

In my view, it is not possible to skip these steps. The lack of solutions is part of the global problem itself.

(One could also say that the very reason the system is crumbling is precesely because the ones which control the system have run out of "solutions" much less these being collective, which they are not)

In general terms, Wall Street Occupation shows that the first two steps have been achieved in part. But people, at each own individual rythm, do have to bring up themselves to speed with a very effective collective comprehension of the problem, for this there needs to be discussion and places for it. People need to shut the television off and literly start talking to each other about their grievances and what needs to be done.

And so, to follow my own advice, let me briefly start...

My expertise is generaly in Communication, and specifically Design. Many times I wondered how my constructed knowledge could help me define the big problem I see...

Problem - Society based/dependent on myths

Solution - Dismount the myths, bring other fellow partners aware of it so they can employ their own knowledge to do the same, share with them my concerns, discover new ways to solve the problem (it does not matter the scale one does this, it is always relevant)

The bad news is that, the problem is big, and there are many of them, "almost" overwhelming.

The good news is that people are showing to be giving a first step, those concerned are positioning themselves, and that if there is anything overwhelming is humanity united.

In the end of the day, the biggest hurdle is in achieving a "scientific collective conscience" of THE problem, so there can be an valid (and authoritative) solution.

This the reason why whenever I stumble with any Science detractor, or Individualism apologist I usually do not restrain myself, because it messes with the most important thing. For this I am usualy considered a subversive element, but I accept the compliment.

See, this is the problem. People think that true free market capitalism is the system that we have now, so they blame the market. The fact is that we don't have free market capitalism right now. We have crony capitalism in which the government gets its hands into nearly every facet of the economy, distorting the market and mucking things up. Real free markets work.

It is questionable if "real free markets ever existed". In 5 centuries of Capitalism one is still to observe a "free market capitalism" that wouldn't inevitably develop it self to an imperialistic phase.