Wall Street Occupation

[Beagle 684]

Doesn't that depend on whom you ask? I mean I know that it didn't resemble the stateless utopia that Marx envisioned ("communist state" seems to me to be a contradiction in terms, no?), but didn't the Soviets think they were creating communism? I agree that no one has succeeded in creating real Marxian communism, but that's precisely my point.

Crony capitalism is failing. Fiat currency is failing. Free exchange, on the other hand, hasn't shown any signs of failure and is indeed the only viable solution in my eyes to contemporary economic problems. It's when free exchange is hindered by government that the market gets distorted and the economy suffers.

You realize that Google, YouTube (part of Google) and Facebook aren't run for free as a general public service, right? They make money through advertising. Lots of money (just check out Google's stock price). Online services supported through advertising revenue are in no way analogous to a single-payer healthcare system paid for by taxpayers.

Free health care for all is a swell idea and I believe it works fairly well in some European countries. A free market approach (which the United States doesn't really have, by the way) would be better, though (but that's for a different thread).

Health care is not for free in europe, in germany for example you pay 15.5% of your total gross income for it... your employer has to pay the same sum... that can sum up to up to 279€ for health insurance per month.... well...after that...it's for free...exept for dental treatment...dental implants for example are not covered by public standart health inssurance. Edited October 2, 2011 by Beagle

[Minutemen 10]

People who are against free health care are pretty brainwashed. Free health care does not mean that someone works for free, it means that you don't have to pay for it. Through free health care Cuba has better health care standards than the US.

Nooo, the easter bunny pays for all of that. The easter bunny studies medicine and will work in the hospital for free.

And Cuba has a free "health care" because they have no health care. They have no medical equipment, they have no medicines, they have nothing. If you want such "health care", please go to cuba and stay there.

Goddamn i hate communists so much i cant even tell you. Just lie, steal, and then murder people untill they get murderd by their comrades.

I agree that no one has succeeded in creating real Marxian communism, but that's precisely my point.

Ofcourse they did! READ MARX!!! before you claim such Bull. They talked all the time about genocide and this sick stuff, because they were Madmen! Communism is a highly infective mentaly illness.

More about the soviet story

And the people you support have killed at least 3 million people.

Ahahahaha,, :D Very saaaaad joke. Communists killed 149 Million People. The Soviets killed just in the Ukraine 14 Million People by starving. Just 7 Million in one year. 3 Million... dont be silly. And if you count the nazis crimes to these crimes, because the nazis were also socialists, the count is even higher.

[Beagle 684]

Stop using Cuba as examle all the time, Cuba is so deep in economical trouble because of US and affiliate american countries embargos and the loss of the whole warsaw pact as trade partners...lift the embargo and we'll see.

[Hans Ludwig 0]

Stop using Cuba as examle all the time, Cuba is so deep in economical trouble because of US and affiliate american countries embargos and the loss of the whole warsaw pact as trade partners...lift the embargo and we'll see.

I support lifting of the embargo, but some of the older Cubans, those living in Miami, still think it's necessary. And still raise a lot of money for candidates to support the status quo.

[dysta 10]

All I should say is the US hate to be the next British, AKA social destruction.

[nettrucker 142]

This thread has completely derailed into a discussion of capitalism versus communism.

Let's concentrate on the actual status quo which is a worldwide problem that we are facing and which led to the wall street occupation. We are focusing 80 percent of our thinking to the problem we should concentrate more on finding a solution. Now what I would like to see is some thoughts how we can find a solution? If you were the one tasked with cleaning up this mess what would you do?

Please share your thoughts.

[Spokesperson 0]

Communism is introduced after a stage of world socialism and after technology allows it by reducing labor time to almost nothing. The USSR was building socialism and at the same time a defense against external and internal counter-revolutionary threats. You have to remember that the US, UK, Poland and a dozen other countries invaded Russia during the civil war to stop the revolution and liberation from spreading.

No socialist country has ever claimed itself to be communist. The USSR was not unsuccessful, but the counter-revolution was successful. People had better lives in the USSR, and that's all that matters. If that means that you limit some exploiters' right to make profits off other people's work that's completely fine.

They have no medical equipment, they have no medicines, they have nothing. If you want such "health care", please go to cuba and stay there.

They have better health care than the US, but yes they have a hard time importing patented US medicine. Despite all that, their performance indices are better than the US ones, and americans actually go there for treatment. And apart from that Cuban doctors are helping people from all over the world by being present on humanitarian missions world wide. Cuba has more medical personnel in foreign countries than any other country or health organization. It's remarkable for such a small country, imagine what the US could be under socialism.

The Miami-cubans are just the old upper class that fled and that still has claims on public property, rather than being put to justice. The US dreams of installing them to power again, but it's natural to see why the cuban population is against that. Militia and regular units fought off their invasion force. So now the US can only resort to terrorism. They harbor terrorist training camps in Florida, and terrorist who have bombed cuban airlines like Posada Carilles. Tourists get shot from the sea and people disembark to blow hotels up. War against terrorism is utter bullshit. The US is the only country in the world apart from nazi-germany that has been found guilty of terrorism in an international court. (Case vs Nicaragua).

[mrcash2009 0]

Any news on the actual "occupation of wall street" anyone, any updates, any extra links?

This thread after a page or two is just euro politics/US politics threads smashed together.

Ok I will post something relevant then:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-15140671

More than 700 people from the Occupy Wall Street protest movement have been arrested on New York's City's Brooklyn Bridge, police say.

Hope it helps.

Edited October 2, 2011 by mrcash2009

[Spokesperson 0]

New York Times Blatantly Edits Article About Occupy Wall Street To Protect Police (IMAGE)

http://www.addictinginfo.org/2011/10/01/new-york-times-blatantly-edits-article-about-occupy-wall-street-to-protect-police-image/

Semper Fi: Marines Coming To Protect Protesters On Wall Street

http://www.addictinginfo.org/2011/10/01/semper-fi-marines-coming-to-protect-protesters-on-wall-street/

“I’m heading up there tonight in my dress blues. So far, 15 of my fellow marine buddies are meeting me there, also in Uniform. I want to send the following message to Wall St and Congress:I didn’t fight for Wall St. I fought for America. Now it’s Congress’ turn.

My true hope, though, is that we Veterans can act as first line of defense between the police and the protester. If they want to get to some protesters so they can mace them, they will have to get through the Fucking Marine Corps first. Let’s see a cop mace a bunch of decorated war vets.

[-martin- 10]

Capitalism (or democracy, whatever it’s called now) used to work back in the day, in the 17th century when most people couldn't read or write and had no education, but we live in a different age now where people are getting the kind of education that even the most educated back then didn't have, as standard, people now have access to more information and it's easier to communicate and organise than ever before.

People are now beginning to see that maybe it’s not such a good idea if 1% of the population owns everything while 99% eats whatever bread crumbs they give them. Even people in the Arab world are now changing their views.

Sadly tough, the biggest problem with mankind has been that people only learn and try to change when they are struggling to breathe and go back to their old ways if they begin to breathe again. But I'm glad that people are beginning to see, because this means that the next step of the revolution is approaching, most people don't see it because this is not a revolution like the one in 1917 (capitalism to socialism) but a slow, never-ending revolution of how mankind thinks as a whole which will bring with it how people will live in the future.

As it has been said in the old book "Kingdoms cannot change until men change".

But as with every revolution there will be people who oppose it, I just hope that one day you realise that you're giving your hard earned money to people who use it to live like kings and build companies while you sit at home and complain about rising prices and argue with your wives.

That’s all I have to say, you can argue about what I wrote as much as you like but its unstoppable, I know that things are changing and I told you that this will happen many times before, but you didn't believe me.

Just because the Soviet Union fell doesn’t mean that the idea of a socialist society died with it, sooner or later people will evolve in to socialists, but this will take time and generations that still have the old mentality need to pass before it happens.

- Martin :cheers:

It sad that you can get banned from a forum if you are Nazi but it seems totally legit to spew the same cancerous ideology that led to millions being killed or losing their freedoms that the Socialist model produced.

I love you Americans I love how you care for human life so much after exterminating most of the native population of America so that you and your country could be produced using slave labour. God bless you all, you little pure angels

Edited October 2, 2011 by -Martin-

[Minutemen 10]

Capitalism (or democracy, whatever it’s called now) used to work back in the day, in the 17th century when most people couldn't read or write and had no education,

What the hell man?!

In this times capitalism workes better than ever! Our technology standart is much higher and knowleadge is way more spread in the community. Best requirements for free markets without monopolys.

Hell, there are people which build hole cars in their garage as a hobby.

If you want a planned economy, go to China, Cuba or one of these other fucked up countrys. But dont even try to cut my rights to trade or produce.

sooner or later people will evolve in to socialists,

Socialism is a LIE and these people will die. They will die by straving because socialist planned economy will screw up the agriculture or get shoot by their comrades because they know where the mass graves of the "Owners" are.

Its a Lie, Its a Lie, Its a Lie, Its a Lie! Socialism is death and terror and before this happend the "owners" the middle class thats left will rebell and whipe the commis out. This time it will happend. Alexander Solschenizyn, famose russian writer, when he was in Gulag he also tought "Damn, We should have shoot at the commis, we should have strike back, everything better than that."

Socialism means Gulag and piles of dead bodys. Ever saw a famine in a free market country? Damn that makes me sick. These bastards murderd so many people, so many of our fellow men wich werent so different to us, but there are still morons running around and praise this sick cult of death and terror.

Want that? Go to china. Leave. Just go away and don't come back untill you get it.

most people don't see it because this is not a revolution like the one in 1917 (capitalism to socialism)

And people like you can vote? You can vote about the fate of your fellow men? Seriosly?

I love you Americans

DONT MAKE THIS A TRIBAL ISUE.!! Grow up.

I support lifting of the embargo, but some of the older Cubans, those living in Miami, still think it's necessary. And still raise a lot of money for candidates to support the status quo.

Yeah, and many of these "older cubans" are Luis Posada Carriles type Madmen

This thread has completely derailed into a discussion of capitalism versus communism.

Look, its between freedome and big goverment. Capitalism means no goverment involvement in the markets. Communism means everything is regulated by the government. Freedome loving people were most time in history a minority.

Edited October 2, 2011 by Minutemen

[ProfTournesol 956]

Look, its between freedome and big goverment. Capitalism means no goverment involvement in the markets. Communism means everything is regulated by the government.

No, capitalism means that production means are held by private hands. Individual people can invest their money in private companies / economic activities to gain profit. No/few government involvement in the markets is liberalism.

[-martin- 10]

In this times capitalism workes better than ever!

I don't think I've ever laughed so hard man especially because you wrote this is a thread about protests against capitalism.

You should do some government propaganda; you have a talent bro.

How can anyone take the rest of your post seriously if you literally started fabulating after the first 4 words?

If you want a planned economy, go to China

Did you know: The computer you are writing this from now is made in China?

Edited October 2, 2011 by -Martin-

[-Snafu- 77]

Long story short.

People are pissed about the economy and want it fixed. They want jobs. Anybody who thinks it's anything else is deluding themselves.

Only a handful give a crap about ideology. I would suggest to those people to go out to the middle of nowhere where you can freely argue and kill each other over this ideological nonsense so as to leave the rest of us alone.

/thread

EDIT

Oh yeah, we have a US politics thread. Why does this one exist?

[dysta 10]

Long story short.

People are pissed about the economy and want it fixed. They want jobs. Anybody who thinks it's anything else is deluding themselves.

Only a handful give a crap about ideology. I would suggest to those people to go out to the middle of nowhere where you can freely argue and kill each other over this ideological nonsense so as to leave the rest of us alone.

/thread

EDIT

Oh yeah, we have a US politics thread. Why does this one exist?

It's an event, not a political conversation.

And also, I'm really should say that we're having enough of derailed topics such as ABCEDFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ-isms and 1234567890-victims from such policies. We're talking about WAR-street, so please focus on the financial issues of the US.

[-Snafu- 77]

It's an event, not a political conversation.

Yeah, but it's also a political protest.

STS-135 would be a non-political event worthy of its own thread.

[nettrucker 142]

It is a first timid reaction to Wallstreet powerstructures. It is not enough. As far as I understood so far is that Ron Paul is the only man really interested in radical change. Americans can change by electing the best man for the job. It is crucial to America to support him and vote for him otherwise we are doomed.

[Spokesperson 0]

It is a first timid reaction to Wallstreet powerstructures. It is not enough. As far as I understood so far is that Ron Paul is the only man really interested in radical change. Americans can change by electing the best man for the job. It is crucial to America to support him and vote for him otherwise we are doomed.

It doesn't matter very much who's elected (and in order to elect some of them you need to get past corporate interests, which you can't unless you are elected already - so it's an impossibility). Individuals like Obama and Bush are just representatives of the systems they are part of. They are front figures, by switching front figure you won't change the system.

As a leftist I like much of what Ron Paul says, but he's naive. He forgets that power isn't only exercised by the government. Where there's no government, there are oligarchs and corporations that rule and nobody elected them (not even in a phony way).

Look at Egypt or other similar countries. There were no revolutions there, just revolts, because all they did was to kick out some front figures. However, the system is still the same, and nothing changed.

We don't need any revolts, we need a revolution. We are the people, and this is supposed to be a democracy. But we the people end up getting arrested after having been set up by the police.

[Minutemen 10]

I don't think I've ever laughed so hard man especially because you wrote this is a thread about protests against capitalism

The Wall Street financed the Nazis and Soviets, the Wall Street is a Tool to merge every market and then hand it over to the goverment, maybee a world goverment. Its not Capitalism, its a fraud to destroy capitalism and open markets. Did you ever read a book about markets?

You should do some government propaganda; you have a talent bro.

I'am not your freaking "bro" you redsock freedom-grabber. Wanna know something about Goverments? Goverments HATE Capitalism. They HATE free markets, they HATE enterprise because it means competition and lowers their power over the people. Get that? More Trade means more Wealth, more Wealth means less dependence on the goverment which means less power for the goverment.

But you kids dont know that because they dont tell you such things in goverment financed schools.

How can anyone take the rest of your post seriously if you literally started fabulating after the first 4 words?

I dont care if Mr.Smartass Hippie Punk for example take it serios because i dont care about Mr.Smartass Hippie Punk. He can think what he want as long as i have freedom. But untill the point Mr.Smartass Hippie Punk tries something to take just one of my freedomes away, iam going in defence mode. Their are still enough people which understand markets and freedome left to balance the socialists thiefgang.

Did you know: The computer you are writing this from now is made in China?

No, its not. I try as much as i can to buy American, Canadian or European, at least a little bit of mexican products. Why? Because China kills us. Quality is low and it destroys our markets. Screw that Slave Labour crap. Its a form of economical warfare against the western world and i dont buy it.

Oh God and People like you are able to vote about the fate of way smarter men.

No, capitalism means that production means are held by private hands. Individual people can invest their money in private companies / economic activities to gain profit.

Than why do you wrote "No" Goddamit? Thats what iam saying: No Goverment involvmend means in private hands. But nowadays you even pay a income tax because the goverment says even your working power is not your property. And than people like -Martin- speak about the goverment is capitalistic because they never ever read a book about economy in their life and just repeat what their crap smoking lefti friends are saying.

It is crucial to America to support him and vote for him otherwise we are doomed.

[ProfTournesol 956]

Than why do you wrote "No" Goddamit? Thats what iam saying: No Goverment involvmend means in private hands.

Because you're confusing capitalism and liberalism, which are close but different concepts. Governement always interfered in capitalist countries economies, usually acting like a regulation power. Because the so called "law of the market" needs regulations, laws enforcement. For example on the stock market, to avoid that some members irregularly benefit from private informations coming from company insiders, while outsiders cannot. Or for example to avoid that some companies on the markets become monopolies etc.

Some will say (like Mister Hans Ludwig here) that governement intervention disturb "natural tendency" of the markets to self regulate, and thus that this intervention is sub optimal for the society, that's the (very summerized) foundation of liberalism.

Others will say that natural market equilibrium is a fiction, precisely that even if markets reach an equilibrium, nothing proves that this equilibrium state is optimal (ie good) for the society. That's the (very summerized and caricaturized) foundation of the Keynesianism / regulation schools.

[dysta 10]

Guys, we're not talking about whatever-isms, get to the US politics forum for this. The war-streets is already get to the bridge, as well as arresting almost thousands citizens now. What to do of the policy isn't matter anymore, right now we just see how these citizens get their "right" back from "ridiculous" financial problems.

[Spokesperson 0]

Its a form of economical warfare against the western world and i dont buy it.

It's called trade.

[Beagle 684]

The whole uprising shows us what kind of -ism the USA really is.

The old GDR regime was brought down by such demonstrations back in 1989 and it just took weeks...the Police was on the side of the demontrants ( we are the people!) back then and the russian military did not care much. Off course there was arresting...but at some point there was simply no capacity anymore for arrests. But the main point was... there were people in GDR government and in the party that wanted a change too.

I don't see this will for change in the USA politicians.

Edited October 2, 2011 by Beagle

[Baff1 0]

It's called trade.

It's called free trade.

A system of international trade that most benefits the biggest industrial powers by opening markets for their goods.

As long as you produce the cheapest goods in the world... then free trade is your friend.

So previously free trade most benefitted America, (and still does), but as other economies become more industrialised, the relationship between who stands to gain and who stands to lose is changing.

In my opinion America either needs to give up free trade with China or declare war on them.

Because they can't compete otherwise. Too many powerful unions and minimum wage laws etc. Too high tax rates etc etc etc.

Free trade elsewhere in the world greatly benefits America's prosperity so any trade barriers they make stands to damage their standard of living.

Smaller less productive countries prefer to cartel together to protect their industries and trade.

It's a difficult transition for America because which ever option they choose, they are in a comparative decline and a system which greatly benefitted their standard of living for so long that it has become politicaly dogmatic for them...

now looks set to benefit their rivals instead.

They have to change their system or take out their rivals.

(Or embrace relative poverty).

I think America would have a hard time making a cartel with everyone bar China. Which is why if I was the Chinese, I would be beefing up my military right now, like it is going out of fashion.

Unusually, I concur with your assessment of what is needed. A revolution.

The world is no more or less productive than it was 5 years ago. The problem is that the systems we use to manage ourselves are failing us.

Unfortunately, that is about as far as we are ever likely to agree, what should come out of any revolution, what new systems should replace the old, we will still diametrically disagree on. Most likely even to the point of civil war.

Revolution is the solution, but these guys in Wall Street? They are nihilists. Where they lead, only a lemming would follow.

Edited October 2, 2011 by Baff1

[Beagle 684]

This talking about making war to compete comes 100 years to late. THis is not working anymore, thre is no financial ´benefot anymore in a globalized world by warmongering...war is one of the main reason for the US debt.

China does not need to make any war against the USA...tghe peoples bank of china already owns the currency of the USA the Dollar.

"Give me control of a nation's currency and I care not who makes the laws."

(Rothschild, 1863)

A gouvernment under such depbt pressure like the US gov can't do any creative politics anymore...it can for now only barely react to pressure from the outside.

Another war is no option anymore, that option was overused in the last 60 years.

Edited October 2, 2011 by Beagle