ACE for OA 1.12

[Robalo 465]

Oh, that, I don't know the reasons, but the ACE ruck sys has always had that limitation, can't interact with it during briefing or while inside vehicles.

[b1944 10]

I guarantee you are still better at spotting the AI in most situations. Before they were blind as bats until they were alerted.

As for accuracy, look at how many shots it takes for a sniper to hit you at 300m on a runway, then complain. They are still far below the level of even a novice FPS player, unable to handle recoil and take sufficient advantage of scopes. They don't have to worry about wind and are really good at estimating bullet drop, but the reality is that ACE has not made them better marksmen. You can define how accurate they are with a simple config change.

If missions are proving too difficult, it is probably because you are playing one of the many missions that puts a handful of special forces up against scores of enemies with armor support, and everyone has to run around with M107s and Javelins to even stand a chance. Try a mission designed for ACE or at least on with realism in mind.

Just make sure SuperAI isn't on, and turn down the enemy Skill and Precision as needed.

Just a few things to make myself clear:

1, I made the mission myself and it was quite challenging but not extremely difficult. Enemy infantry patrols scattered over a large urban area, five human players, Mk17 CCO SD's, 60 kills within 150 minutes. We lost at most 7-8 "lives" altogether (we use norrin's revive).

2, After we had upgraded to 1.59 and ACE 1.12 something really changed. We did not stand a chance and lost about 20 "lives" during the first 30 minutes. With thermal sights the mission became acceptable but still a bit "annoying".

3, I have checked my mission. Super AI is off, all the other settings are at expert level. Engagement at 600m with iron sights was an exaggeration indeed but in my mission most enemy patrols have three members:

- team leader: skill set to 100%, AK74 with a CCO-like sight, NVgoggles

- machinegunner: skill 50%, PKM with iron sight, no googles

- grenadier: skill 50%, AK74 with iron sight, no googles

I measured the distances at which they always started firing (quite precisely): 300m or sometimes a bit more. I think that is NOT realistic but I don't want to argue over that.

I am not complaining, because tough AI makes the game more enjoyable. I'm simply a bit sad about having to make a few test missions to make the ones we like playable again. And although I know that your skill, your hardware, etc. all play an important role, I think that the engagement distance of 300m combined with quite precise shots fired form a weapon equipped with an iron sights at night is kind of unrealistic.

I really don't want to discuss who can beat super AI with a .45 but if anyone has a suggestion what I should change and how exactly, I will thank him for that.

And a question: what does the "Enemy units" slider exactly do in the difficuty settings?

[WildFire6 10]

Yeah been away for a while, just wondered if you guys ever figured out a way. Thanks for the prompt reply. I'll just put some boxes out.

It seems like a likely limitation, is the briefing screen a locked state that can not be programmed or altered in any way, such as this, adding variables? And getting the engine to assign that variable to a new* rscaction. Could see it as being relatively difficult.

[sickboy 13]

@b1944; Play ACE with v1.60 betas (until the official patch is out - soon ).

[Robalo 465]

@b1944:

At expert difficulty you should expect the AI to be super hard. The settings are balanced for latest betas with regular difficulty. Try that first, then if it's too easy, go for veteran.

The AI slider in difficulty is a way to tweak their skill but it only matters for AI controlled by that machine (eg. server settings matter most for a coop mission).

Best tweak the settings in the config by hand, adjusting the skill and precision for each difficulty level. This should be well covered in the MP forum.

[Tonci87 163]

Just a few things to make myself clear:

1, I made the mission myself and it was quite challenging but not extremely difficult. Enemy infantry patrols scattered over a large urban area, five human players, Mk17 CCO SD's, 60 kills within 150 minutes. We lost at most 7-8 "lives" altogether (we use norrin's revive).

2, After we had upgraded to 1.59 and ACE 1.12 something really changed. We did not stand a chance and lost about 20 "lives" during the first 30 minutes. With thermal sights the mission became acceptable but still a bit "annoying".

3, I have checked my mission. Super AI is off, all the other settings are at expert level. Engagement at 600m with iron sights was an exaggeration indeed but in my mission most enemy patrols have three members:

- team leader: skill set to 100%, AK74 with a CCO-like sight, NVgoggles

- machinegunner: skill 50%, PKM with iron sight, no googles

- grenadier: skill 50%, AK74 with iron sight, no googles

I measured the distances at which they always started firing (quite precisely): 300m or sometimes a bit more. I think that is NOT realistic but I don't want to argue over that.

I am not complaining, because tough AI makes the game more enjoyable. I'm simply a bit sad about having to make a few test missions to make the ones we like playable again. And although I know that your skill, your hardware, etc. all play an important role, I think that the engagement distance of 300m combined with quite precise shots fired form a weapon equipped with an iron sights at night is kind of unrealistic.

I really don't want to discuss who can beat super AI with a .45 but if anyone has a suggestion what I should change and how exactly, I will thank him for that.

And a question: what does the "Enemy units" slider exactly do in the difficuty settings?

Man if you take on 60 Enemys with only 5 men, then you are doing something wrong. Setting the Squad Leaders to 100% will give you a hard time fighting those groups if your server difficulty setting is also at a high level. Try to tweak that first.

You can´t rambo through dozens of AIs any more, and that is a very good thing!

[maturin 12]

I can hit accurately at 300m with an AK-74, not to mention a PKM. Why shouldn't the AI be able to?

That's not to say that recent changes in beta patches may have interacted with ACE to make the AI more accurate. Just last night I was hit on the third or fourth round by a section of Russians at a distance of 300-500m and I was running perpendicular to them along a slope. But you really have to demonstrate what has changed and what changed it. Your account seems reasonable, but AI complaints really bring out the idiots who rant about myths like X-ray vision, so it's a proof-or-gtfo situation.

I like testing AI, so describe some scenario where you think this behavior would be on display and we'll both try to figure it out.

Edited November 18, 2011 by maturin

[sickboy 13]

Release Notes: http://ace.dev-heaven.net/wagn/ACE_1_13_RC3

Enjoy!

[HyperU2 11]

I never play without ACE so, does it happen in Vanilla where you switch from the CLU on thermal and use your rifle scope and it's in thermal as well?

[maturin 12]

I never play without ACE so, does it happen in Vanilla where you switch from the CLU on thermal and use your rifle scope and it's in thermal as well?

Permanently or momentarily?

[Robalo 465]

Vanilla bug, to my knowledge, switching between weapons with various optics like NV/TI, the vision mode is not reset sometimes so you end up with the previous weapon's mode until you press the NV key to reset it.

Found this CIT issue: http://dev-heaven.net/issues/25663

[HyperU2 11]

Permanently or momentarily?

I can turn it off. Just wondering if there was any worth in a ticket. Just been noticing it more with the thermal requirement for Javs locking. Voted.

Edited November 18, 2011 by HyperU2

[noubernou 77]

For anyone using the M119s in their mission please make sure and check them out before playing to make sure that the aiming stakes and the new collimator are set up correctly and not hidden from view.

[maturin 12]

Can javelins lock on to humans and hit them when they're sprinting in real life?

[Tonci87 163]

They should be able to if the human emits a heat signature....

[kotov12345 10]

even black hole have heat signature :)

[DieselJC 196]

I truly wish ACE would fix the unrealistic slow vehicles and the xray vision and perfect marksmanship the AI have...cant believe I am the only one who sees how bad a few ACE things are..

JC

[maturin 12]

I can... what are you talking about?

[DieselJC 196]

you honestly think the vehicles are realistic? the way the AI has perfect marksmanship is realistic? Im by no means aperfect shot but the AI has unbelievable marksmanship with no scopes and iron sights..

[maturin 12]

you honestly think the vehicles are realistic? the way the AI has perfect marksmanship is realistic? Im by no means aperfect shot but the AI has unbelievable marksmanship with no scopes and iron sights..

How are ACE vehicles *less* realistic than plain BI vehicles? And the AI never had X-ray vision, so ACE can't have magically given it to them. And I don't know about you, but I still shoot better than the AI, and they miss me plenty.

No one likes listening to people bitch and moan, especially when they're being given something for free.

So be helpful, damnit, and give them actual evidence of concrete problems. If there turns out to be an issue with accuracy (something ACE does not modify much), I won't leave them alone until they fix it.

*

What follows is an accuracy test with the latest version of ACE and the latest beta patch.

An ACR rifleman, machinegunner and sniper fire at a long infantryman on the Utes runway. They are prone, firing single shots at a slow rate (except for the MG, of course), and the target is standing 300m away.

I let each man expend an entire magazine, and counted the hits.

The rifleman with the Czech AK-47 variant scored 4 hits out of 30 rounds. The machinegunner with the M60 scored 5 hits out of 100 shots. The sniper with the SVD hit only once with his ten rounds.

This accuracy is so dismal that I feel no need to demonstrate that it is better than the vanilla game. Note that the precision setting for these units was 0.9 or nearly perfect.

At 100m, the rifleman hit with 14 out of 30 rounds. No player in a similar situation could have missed with over half his rounds at that distance.

The machinegunner hit with something like 35 rounds, and the sniper hit with 7, effective, but still worse than any player not afflicted with Parkinson's.

At 600m, the rifleman refuses to shoot, and the machinegunner only hit once. That's a hit ratio of 1%, so hardly perfect marksmanship. The sniper hit either once or twice, still within the effective range of his weapon. When I moved the rifleman up to 500m, he hit once or twice.

This test has a rather small sample size, but I think we can conclude that both ACE and precision settings have only marginal effects on AI accuracy. You can make them shoot like utter blundering fools, but nothing you can do will turn them into true marksmen. And this was in perfect conditions. They are incapable of handling recoil and get confused by elevation differences and strafing targets. Their true strength lies in their ability to pinpoint shooters in their line of sight almost immediately.

Edited November 20, 2011 by maturin

[galzohar 31]

You guys should really look at yourselves before you complain about "AI perfect marksmanship". I've never seen AI shoot better than what me and most people I know are capable of in-game, with no AI mod I've used, always playing with maximum AI skill settings. If they ever feel "too strong" it's usually because they manage to see you before you see them, often (but not always) through some sort of vegetation.

[maturin 12]

Regarding the complaints in this thread, I have some speculation.

Just because the AI are terrible marksmen when you look at their hit ratios doesn't mean they aren't capable of making some excellent shots.

And the fact that ACE's AI changes make them engage at longer distances and engage more enthusiastically at medium distances means that the average player is going to die in fights they would have survived in vanilla. This creates the illusions of high accuracy.

Likewise, I don't think their accuracy degrades as fast as player accuracy does at distance. Humans are laser-like at 300m but will struggle at 500 or 600m because of bullet drop. The AI understand ballistics mathematically, and even though they suck at 300m, they only suck a little more at 600. A guy with an AK-74 just dispatched me quite handily at 590m because I let him unload four or so magazines.

[MavericK96 0]

If they ever feel "too strong" it's usually because they manage to see you before you see them, often (but not always) through some sort of vegetation.

I think that's my biggest beef with the AI at this point. I'll be walking along and suddenly be getting engaged/killed through a bunch of trees/bushes/tall grass/etc. Really frustrating.

[maturin 12]

I think that's my biggest beef with the AI at this point. I'll be walking along and suddenly be getting engaged/killed through a bunch of trees/bushes/tall grass/etc. Really frustrating.

It's the fault of the vegetation models, not the AI.

In Chernarus, as we all know, they saw through the grass. But the bushes were almost perfect. Tree canopies weren't which mattered if you were on the side of a hill.

I don't know how it is with the OA foliage. For sure the marijuana plants are practically transparent.

[sickboy 13]

You have AI skill and accuracy in your own hands in the game's difficulty settings and of course the skill fields in the mission / editor.

But in any case; make sure you run the latest ongoing dev (1.13 RC3), and that you run the v1.60 betas until the 1.60 patch is released.

Otherwise find our issue tracker; http://ace.dev-heaven.net/wagn/Bug_Reporting and create a ticket with details, repro mission, and rpt file.