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bluedrake42

New Action Menu

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Linear menus tend to be better when content is dynamic. Radial tends to be better when the content is static.

Also, linear will be faster when options of highest priority are at the top, where radial menus will be slower (though slightly) where higher priority items are spaced equally (though multi-tiered radials are a different thing altogether).

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I don't like either, but I'd take the list over radial simply because it can be accessed just with the mouse wheel and does not take up a lot of screen real estate.

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Just to clarify, I'm also talking about squad command.

In BF2 PR squad command does work, if the server is anything short of mature they will follow a good commander. The AI does that regardless :).

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Then you got nearby a vehicle and a friend unit while trying to swith to the AT weapon and end blowing a satchel killing everyone. This action menu and the F for cycle throught weapons are things that MUST go. Or make an option to use "the old way".

It does kinda get annoying when something pops up in the menu when your trying to select something else. But may I ask, What is "the old way"?

Secondly, Pufu is highlighting the fact that there are a lot of new joiners who speak as if the advent of PR in the Armaverse is the second coming of the Messiah, and that everyone has been playing by mashing their foreheads against their keyboards up until that point.

He still could of gone at it in a nice way. Everyone else didn't feel the need to bash his thoughts in such a rude way.

I do see what Pufu is trying to get across, but still at the same time he could be a little more nicer about it. So that way new people who feel the need to share what they think won't think of everyone at the Arma verse is an ass. Unless the OP'er post something that is meant to be taken in a rude way. :)

Edited by Haystack15
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It does kinda get annoying when something pops up in the menu when your trying to select something else. But may I ask, What is "the old way"?

The current one. Was thinking ahead, with a new system in A3. :p

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Linear menus tend to be better when content is dynamic. Radial tends to be better when the content is static.

Also, linear will be faster when options of highest priority are at the top, where radial menus will be slower (though slightly) where higher priority items are spaced equally (though multi-tiered radials are a different thing altogether).

That's not true. What you should have said is that linear menus are easy to code for dynamic content. Radial menus require more work to implement in game. But they are ultimately far more effective imo

And I'm talking about multi tiered radials

and btw operation flashpoint dragon rising is a *@*@ terrible example of radial menus (not even going to bring up the gameplay >.>).

PR:BF2 and PR:ArmA2 are the best examples of radial implementation.

Edited by Bluedrake42

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Quote from a modder who's developing a radial menu system for ArmA2:

One thing I've found from using this daily for a while: It is so much easier to use AI. Not just "oh I can issue commands faster" but it actually made more complex combat possible. Working with a basic four man squad in open terrain is, for lack of a better term, beautiful. I've played missions designed for small high command operations using only a basic squad. You're moving, changing your squad's stance, lining up shots, moving your AT soldier into that perfect spot and then drawing fire. You don't have to fiddle with the dang scroll wheel. The AI behave. They don't die from secret hidden enemies (actually standing in plain sight) because they marched off on their own. I found myself using tactics and commands that I never would before, simply because it was so simple to do so. I've been playing the ofp\arma series for a long time, and lots of my most memorable combat moments have come from using this mod.

I want some of that :)

I guess I'm probably known for advocating a new menu GUI system in ArmA, but I think it's important that a new radial/whatever system be an optional system appended to the existing old system. That way, everyone can be happy. Yes, everyone.

IMO the radial mouse system is about ingame focus, if you think you can move, shoot, use items and give orders all at the same time using some kind of finger kung fu and a mental library of remembered number sequences, then good for you, but I think I'd rather use a system where I got into cover and then made some focussed GUI choices, just a preference.

But I think I'm not alone in thinking that the tedious dynamic list system needs to be reviewed, it's no fun chasing a list item up & down the list because things are moving about in your line of view. Often causing you to issue a nonsensical order like sending your group romping off into enemy fire because the order "move there" replaced "set off satchel charge" a fraction of a second before clicking.

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That's not true. What you should have said is that linear menus are easy to code for dynamic content. Radial menus require more work to implement in game. But they are ultimately far more effective imo

And I'm talking about multi tiered radials

and btw operation flashpoint dragon rising is a *@*@ terrible example of radial menus (not even going to bring up the gameplay >.>).

PR:BF2 and PR:ArmA2 are the best examples of radial implementation.

No, radial menus are better when their content is static and not-changing. When the position of menu items stays the same (because no new things are being added) it leads to actions being imprinted in muscle memory. Because your brain knows where to flick the mouse you can more quickly access common items, but only when they are always in the same place.

List menus are better for when content changes constantly (like in Arma, because it is how you interact with objects around you) because new items can be prioritized at the top and can be defined in other ways that enable people to more quickly ingest the new data and make their decision.

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No, radial menus are better when their content is static and not-changing. When the position of menu items stays the same (because no new things are being added) it leads to actions being imprinted in muscle memory. Because your brain knows where to flick the mouse you can more quickly access common items, but only when they are always in the same place.

List menus are better for when content changes constantly (like in Arma, because it is how you interact with objects around you) because new items can be prioritized at the top and can be defined in other ways that enable people to more quickly ingest the new data and make their decision.

I'm just saying that its very possible for radial menus to work in dynamic games such as arma 2 that's all

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Yes, they can work, but not as well. If you had a combination, then it would be better. Common items that do not change, say the AI commanding menus would work well, but the normal interaction menu would probably be better remaining as a list, as annoying as that is.

Eitherway, I hope they move away from things like menus for actions that could be implemented in the physical realm, like clicking on switches, opening doors, etc. You shouldnt need an action menu for that.

See below:

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Eitherway, I hope they move away from things like menus for actions that could be implemented in the physical realm, like clicking on switches, opening doors, etc. You shouldnt need an action menu for that.

I agree to that, but then you might need a menu for objects that have multiple actions.

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Guys, really, the proponents of a proper context sensitive raidal menu system are right. I remember years back when Alias first introduced the idea into Maya (3D modelling app). I was like: "what is this crap!? this will never work." But it really is a revolution for any kind of selection-action based interface (commanding troops is just that). also it enables "mouse gestures", which is just damn nice! two swipes left, one swipe right and you've just ordered Team Red into Delta formation (or whatever). Just a beautiful system if implemented well. Sakura_Chan has really got me interested.

When I first got ArmA, I mistakenly thought it was using the basis of this system with its action-list and could easily be transormed into a fully-fledged radial system.. noob error, it's certainly not.

of course, it's all about personal preference. some rare quite happy with pure keyboard interface (and the real pros can probably issue commands a lot faster than anyone that way), some like the linear menu. i just think those who do like the current menu will take very quickly to radial and find it a lot better.

personally, i use Voice activation and do not think i will ever return to mouse clicking - even raidal ;)

Edited by ghost101

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Not arguing that with you

Been playing arma and ofp for over 10 years here mate.

What PuFu was talking about was community and community content related. How long you've been playing the game is not really part and parcel to your community involvement.

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So, the BIS side is bashing the PR "kiddies" and the PR side is bashing the "clunkyness" of the command menu?

Imo its ok, its useable but you have to be extra careful and adjust to it. That doesn't mean it couldn't be better.........

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I was thinking of maybe a slide in/slide out of screen menu with slight opacity.

Move middle mouse & options slide to view and slide/fade away, and also some config option of whether you want it center screen or right/left.

That way anything populating the menu has some time to show before it arrives to you to select.

Although as mentioned interaction ways that take more and more away from populating this menu would be good.

I posted in the request thread about Raven Shields way of opening & closing doors with mouse wheel / mouse click wheel, this would remove "open / close door" fumbling in that menu right away (as an example of ways to take focus from the action menu).

Exiting and entering vehicles, rearming at crates should also be moved to context options only with mouse and not populate this menu at all, I point to right hand heli door, icon changes, I exit that door, I point to left heli door I exit that door (cars too). I want to get into jet and exit jet I do similar, or at least the jet has a button to open canopy when stationary to then exit with mouse pointing. I point to door in front, mouse wheel slowly opens it & mouse click fully open & closes it. I point at crates I have rearm open crate icon to execute ... all things to never open action menu.

I think this menu should be used for external script executing only. In fact context mouse point should be used far more than this menu (doesn't have to be large screen of options, just represented icon). Its more about not changing it too much but changing its reliance and over use for simple things and interactions.

Edited by mrcash2009

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Mouse wheel scrolling sucks, period. It's clunky and gets in the way. I'm not saying it needs to be radial, but it needs to be easier to use and work better. You should play PR before you criticize. The radial menu makes it much faster and easier to interact with the environment, instead of having a scroll menu that usually overflows and constantly changes. As opposed to mouse scrolling, radial menus stay constant. meaning you always know how to quickly activate certain options.

Woah, you're telling me maybe I should play PR some more? Maybe instead of bitching about how the command menu works in ArmA, you could just learn it like I had to do back in 2001 when the original Operation Flashpoint came out. Yeah, it was confusing as hell at first, but it is very efficient with it being out of the way and using the mouse scroll while you can still use other buttons.

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There are the disadvantages and advantages of a scroll menu and a radial menu.

I will put some down.

Radial

Pro:

Easy for players to learn and understand.

Fast interaction with the menu.

Will make lists look less clogged.

Cons:

Can use up alot of the screen if designed inefectively.

List

Pro:

Uses up low amounts of the screen when designed effectively.

Can be easier when trying to go back through the menu.

Cons:

Can be slow reading through text since list is clogged.

Looks visually unappealing.

Clunky controls having to use the mouse wheel.

I think personally a radial menu with good controls could be very effective in ArmA 3 but if done badly could result in a mess. Using easily distinguishable icons to represent actions could be a step forward. While we do have icons they are limited, hard to see and can be confusing.

Anyways, that is my ideas :p

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Would radial be slower due to low fps too?

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Probably, if you're getting low frame rates it's not going to matter what method is being used, it's going to get the jitters.

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I partially agree. I think a separate menu for weapon attachments would be a good idea as they are currently cluttering the action menu from the videos I've seen.

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I partially agree. I think a separate menu for weapon attachments would be a good idea as they are currently cluttering the action menu from the videos I've seen.

I would make that part of the gear menu because you'd have to go into your gear to get parts of your weapon at any rate... unless you have some QD parts.

Edited by Max Power

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The Action Menu would be fine if it was further enhanced to make it more complete and functional. As an overhaul, it would need the following fixes and functional changes:

  1. shortcut keys
  2. prevent mouse scroll wheel from jumping 2 or 3 menu items at a time thereby skipping options, forcing users to always use keyboard [,] keys instead.
    • We need an in-game setting to slow this down even further.
    • (My mouse config is already set to minimum slow scroll speed 1, if you're wondering. Tip: Don't buy a cheap Microsoft mouse.)

[*] mouse click interaction (not essential, but for completeness of functionality).

[*] integrated sub-menus. This would be the most difficult feature to change.

[*]option to include disabled ("greyed out") menu options.

  • Not used for all cases. Primarily intended to indicate an option should be normally available now, but isn't due to conditions. Sometimes the total absence of certain menu options is confusing.

[*]option for hints/tips. Either to indicate a complex purpose and/or allow shorter captions.

The hardest thing to solve with a new menu design is handling unlimited menu options, which the Action menu already supports.

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