Flight Dynamics Feedback From Real Helicopter Pilots

[EMann 10]

I am worried they are catering more to the Arma crowd than the pilot/simulator crowd.

Are you referring to 'As realistic as possible Flight dynamics' according to RL pilots in expert modes or the default flight model setting etc for novice or general user?

Reason i ask is why would you restrict a FM of all realistic attributes in the Expert mode? or is it more about the over simplifying of certain flight procedure or similar?

[twisted 128]

They need to listen to the real pilots. ... I think the game will sell more copies if they listen to us than if they don't.

i hope they do too and i am not a real pilot. Am not even a very good fake pilot honestly. which is why i bought TKOH.

[max power 21]

I really hope they get this stuff ironed out. They need to listen to the real pilots. They have championed realism since they announced this project, but I am worried they are catering more to the Arma crowd than the pilot/simulator crowd. I think the game will sell more copies if they listen to us than if they don't.

Can you please explain in more detail?

[purepassion 22]

The feature status you might like for all heli pilots :)

Feature Status

Autorotation-----------------------------------yes

Transitional Lift--------------------------------yes

Retreating Blade Stall----------------------- yes

Vortex Ring State-----------------------------planned in patch

Fuel Consumption----------------------------yes

Weight Load-----------------------------------yes

Wind Direction & Speed---------------------yes

Engine Temperature (hotstarts)-----------yes

Transmission & Engine Stress

(overtorque)-----------------------------------yes

Rotors, Landing Gear,

Hull & Avionics Damage----------------------yes

Authentic simulated gauges

in 3D cockpit

(Barometric altimeter, RPM, Torque,

Temperature) simplified gauges as

helper in both imperial/metric units-------yes

Winch, Sling, & Fast-rope Simulation------yes

Interactive 3D cockpit with

simplified startup sequences

based on real life operating manuals

(electrical source, starter, APU,

throttle, radio, lights)-------------------------yes

Scaleable difficulty settings:

Autohover, auto-trim, auto-startup,

reduced stress limits.-------------------------yes

Interactive aircraft inspection

pre-flight checks-------------------------------yes

Maintenance & customisation

of helicopter equipment----------------------yes

Dual controls allowing

to switch pilot and copilot

roles during flight------------------------------yes

As a copilot player can operate

infrared camera, searchlight, doorguns---yes

Take care

Pure :)

[nightsta1ker 10]

The feature status you might like for all heli pilots :)

Feature Status

Autorotation-----------------------------------yes

Transitional Lift--------------------------------yes

Retreating Blade Stall----------------------- yes

Vortex Ring State-----------------------------planned in patch

Fuel Consumption----------------------------yes

Weight Load-----------------------------------yes

Wind Direction & Speed---------------------yes

Engine Temperature (hotstarts)-----------yes

Transmission & Engine Stress

(overtorque)-----------------------------------yes

Rotors, Landing Gear,

Hull & Avionics Damage----------------------yes

Authentic simulated gauges

in 3D cockpit

(Barometric altimeter, RPM, Torque,

Temperature) simplified gauges as

helper in both imperial/metric units-------yes

Winch, Sling, & Fast-rope Simulation------yes

Interactive 3D cockpit with

simplified startup sequences

based on real life operating manuals

(electrical source, starter, APU,

throttle, radio, lights)-------------------------yes

Scaleable difficulty settings:

Autohover, auto-trim, auto-startup,

reduced stress limits.-------------------------yes

Interactive aircraft inspection

pre-flight checks-------------------------------yes

Maintenance & customisation

of helicopter equipment----------------------yes

Dual controls allowing

to switch pilot and copilot

roles during flight------------------------------yes

As a copilot player can operate

infrared camera, searchlight, doorguns---yes

Take care

Pure :)

To clarify to some of the others who wanted to know specifically what I meant by my comment:

Since this project was first announced, several real world pilots, myself included, have been very active on this forum giving suggestions and advice to help make this game all it can be. There was some static with the gaming community, some of whom thought realism should be sub-par to gameplay (playability and arcade style fun). Helicopters are challenging. They require alot of training, talent, skill, attention to detail, and most of all practice, to master. After reviewing and seeing reviews of the Community Preview releases, and seeing the changes that were implemented based on general feedback from the community, it started to seem to me that more attention was being paid to the general community than to the real pilots that were trying desperately to provide feedback and implement changes that were important to us. Changes that regarded the flight dynamics. After seeing several updates that did very little to improve the dynamics, and in some cases hurt them (alot of this due to complaints and suggestions being made by non pilots), I started to grow weary and stopped monitoring progress.

Hovercontrol staff member Cris Gaeth (aka Panther) noted that they would be reviewing the demo soon. So I popped on here to see if any good progress had been made with the flight profile. After reading some of the comments made by other pilots, I started to worry.

Thank you for the update PurePassion. I am glad you guys are going to implement all of those things. I just have one question, and it probably won't be answered until I buy the game when it is released and find out for myself: Will it all work the way it is supposed to? Will it feel right? Do your models fly like real helicopters? Your Community Preview was on the right track, but there were some elements that were lacking, and I was starting to get the impression that the flight model was not going anywhere. I just hope for everyones sake that it all feels right. I'm not going to be criticising because a temperature or pressure gauge is not reading exactly how I think it should, or maybe it takes off with 60% torque when it would really probably be 75 or 80%, they are fictional models. But helicopters all fly pretty similarly. Some are more sensitive than others, some sluggish, some fast, some slow, but they all have the same forces acting on them, and so their behavior is pretty predictable regardless of type or size (there are a few exceptions, but only a few).

I was just voicing my concern aloud. I have been very anxious to see a game like this come out for a long time. I have even had lengthy daydream discussions about it with other pilot/gamers. When this project was announced it felt like the Holy Grail had been revealed to me. It would be very disappointing to be let down because the flight model was unrealistic.

[nightsta1ker 10]

After re-reading the post above, I wanted to add that my concerns that the game should cater to pilots over the general public are not meant to sound elitist. Every one of the members of this forum who has voiced their thoughts of how this game should be is entitled to their opinion, and their opinion is just as valid as anyone elses, including mine. I am not trying to say that as a pilot, my opinion is more valid than anyone elses. I am only trying to make the point that BIS has stated that they intend to provide a realistic (within the confines of a game) experience in the life of a career civil helicopter pilot, and in order to do that, they would need to place some extra attention and emphasis on real pilot feedback. Judging by the note from PurePassion, perhaps they have been, and maybe the Community Preview does not live up to what the actual game has in store for all of us, but it has been all we have to go by.

I just want to make sure that everyone understands where I am coming from. Please put the broken bottles down!

[ocramweb 0]

Thinking that it is going to be more 'arcade' than what it could be.

(not regarding on details, but some behaviors* from what I saw up to now, are going to be very annoying for rl pilots.. or any others that knows how choppers are supposed to fly).

I am not saying this game is not going to be nice, many of us, dreamed about it for so long...

once again we have not seen anything else than the preview for now, and I am sure there will be many updates for this game.

I really wish that they'll go on to the mainstream of pilots feedback, ... we'll see it'll be sad if not. :(

I will not break a bottle, I'll just offer you one ;)

*already stated here and there in the forum

ps: There is the TOH Community Issue Tracker that could also help, and I think there is too little activities there, maybe easier for devs to spot things, ... never knows

Edited October 1, 2011 by ocramweb

[sbsmac 0]

After re-reading the post above, I wanted to add that my concerns that the game should cater to pilots over the general public are not meant to sound elitist. Every one of the members of this forum who has voiced their thoughts of how this game should be is entitled to their opinion, and their opinion is just as valid as anyone elses, including mine.

FWIW, as a non-pilot (apart from a single 45 minute introductory lesson in an R440 I'm also very keen that the FM should be as accurate a representation of the real thing as possible.

[Chris CDN 10]

After re-reading the post above, I wanted to add that my concerns that the game should cater to pilots over the general public are not meant to sound elitist. Every one of the members of this forum who has voiced their thoughts of how this game should be is entitled to their opinion, and their opinion is just as valid as anyone elses, including mine. I am not trying to say that as a pilot, my opinion is more valid than anyone elses. I am only trying to make the point that BIS has stated that they intend to provide a realistic (within the confines of a game) experience in the life of a career civil helicopter pilot, and in order to do that, they would need to place some extra attention and emphasis on real pilot feedback.

I understand where you're coming from and I'd love to see a true "simulation" but in all honesty, BIS just can't produce a product like that. To be honest, I'm not sure anyone can. The DCS series is the closest thing I've found to a true simulation, but the inherent limits of technology and developer resources will keep the level of realism we want from becoming a reality for at least the next decade.

ToH right now (kinda / sorta / maybe) mimics the control inputs required to fly a helicopter. It doesn't deal with traffic AFAIK, nor ATC, nor will it feature dynamic weather, a proper view point for long lining, realistic torque settings / power limitations, proper start-up / shut downs, it does a crap job with ground effect, it's almost impossible to get a decent rate of descent, etc.

None of this really matters at the end of the day though. It's going to be a blast to fly (especially multiplayer), there will hopefully be a boatload of mods made by the community and in a perfect world will serve as a great proof of concept for future BIS projects and for other developers.

In summary, don't sweat the things you can't change. If BIS thought it was a good idea to listen to the helicopter pilots here (myself included) they would have. They decided not to, but at the end of the day they're better judges of how to make video games than I am.

Now who's up for a beer and some multi-player beta fly-ins?

Edited October 1, 2011 by Chris CDN
Spelling

[nightsta1ker 10]

I understand where you're coming from and I'd love to see a true "simulation" but in all honesty, BIS just can't produce a product like that. To be honest, I'm not sure anyone can. The DCS series is the closest thing I've found to a true simulation, but the inherent limits of technology and developer resources will keep the level of realism we want from becoming a reality for at least the next decade.

ToH right now (kinda / sorta / maybe) mimics the control inputs required to fly a helicopter. It doesn't deal with traffic AFAIK, nor ATC, nor will it feature dynamic weather, a proper view point for long lining, realistic torque settings / power limitations, proper start-up / shut downs, it does a crap job with ground effect, it's almost impossible to get a decent rate of descent, etc.

None of this really matters at the end of the day though. It's going to be a blast to fly (especially multiplayer), there will hopefully be a boatload of mods made by the community and in a perfect world will serve as a great proof of concept for future BIS projects and for other developers.

In summary, don't sweat the things you can't change. If BIS thought it was a good idea to listen to the helicopter pilots here (myself included) they would have. They decided not to, but at the end of the day they're better judges of how to make video games than I am.

Now who's up for a beer and some multi-player beta fly-ins?

Alot of what you mentioned is indeed very trivial, and like I said, I am not expecting a perfect simulation. Just some basic, decent flight modeling. And yes, it IS possible. I spent the last 4 months working with the developer of the Dreamfoil 206 for X-plane on his new R22BII. It is absolutely amazing how close his flight dynamics and systems are to the real thing. Is it perfect? No. X-plane has it's limitations too. But is it good enough to be very convincing? Absolutely. And I think with some focus, BIS could make a convincing flight model too. Does it need to be perfect? No. It just needs to be convincing.

[Chris CDN 10]

I think with some focus, BIS could make a convincing flight model too. Does it need to be perfect? No. It just needs to be convincing.

The flight model could absolutely be convincing with enough effort from the developer. My point was there is so much ground to cover with regard to comms, airspace, physics, etc. that there's no way to please everyone. I don't think of ToH as a sim, I think of it as SimCopter+.

[ocramweb 0]

I agree with both of your point of view the game one is far too high, but lets not take the skin of the bear before killing him, lets see how it goes, if we can tweak things (flat pitch, banking, ground effect ...) for the best, and what feature we will be able to add to it (ATC, Firefighting ...) could be arcade fun

[4 IN 1 0]

I am also think of it as SimCopter redux, but simers will still get very piss off for any error for sure.

[RUBIX 10]

It seems that the topic of this thread has changed. I hope that we can get back on track. I started this thread to discuss flight dynamics IRL and in TOH, and hoped to broaden our knowledge as a community. I know that the developers for BIS are very active with their community and that they do take the time to read what we have to say. Let us try to open discussions about different flight characteristics in TOH that may needs some guidance and offer the best solutions we can.

p.s. 'Best feedback and communication from developers award' goes to...a tie between: BIS and Mojang

---------- Post added at 08:42 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:39 PM ----------

Recommended reading:

Rotorcraft Flying Handbook

FAA-H-8083-21

U.S. Department of Transportation

Federal Aviation Administration

This is a great book for the basics of helicopter flight: For all who are interested

[nightsta1ker 10]

It seems that the topic of this thread has changed. I hope that we can get back on track. I started this thread to discuss flight dynamics IRL and in TOH, and hoped to broaden our knowledge as a community. I know that the developers for BIS are very active with their community and that they do take the time to read what we have to say. Let us try to open discussions about different flight characteristics in TOH that may needs some guidance and offer the best solutions we can.

p.s. 'Best feedback and communication from developers award' goes to...a tie between: BIS and Mojang

---------- Post added at 08:42 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:39 PM ----------

Recommended reading:

Rotorcraft Flying Handbook

FAA-H-8083-21

U.S. Department of Transportation

Federal Aviation Administration

This is a great book for the basics of helicopter flight: For all who are interested

I'm sorry if I hijacked your thread RUBIX. I felt strongly that more needed to be said. We can talk about behavioral issues all day long, but if we are not seeing them fixed, then it's kind of pointless, don't you think? In any case, ocramweb has a point. We are not too far from release, and perhaps BIS has a few aces up their sleeves yet.

For the record, I did not mention anything like realistic ATC comms, airspace, things of that nature. I do not expect any of that as I am well aware this is not a simulation. However, I do think decent flight dynamics is important.

4 in 1, I find your remark to be typical of the "static" I mentioned in my earlier post about pilots doing our best to "keep it real" on this forum (pun intended). At no point do I feel my expectations or suggestions have been unrealistic within the confines of a fun and playable game, nor have I at any point expected "perfection". I think the vast majority of us know that this game will have it's limitations, but we are all hoping for some basics. Decent flight physics, combined with some missions to use them with. One without the other is OK. We already have several examples of that. BOTH would be phenominal.

RUBIX... Once again. Sorry for hijacking your thread. That's enough from me.

[.kju 3244]

Why not move the other topics into new threads?

[ocramweb 0]

(We had many patches and will have a few more.)

I haven't seen, or I missed some thoughts about that Banking occuring in Toh, that you get using the collective, and if any of you have been able to fly above the Vne for a while without doing a dive.

[RUBIX 10]

I am still concerned about that roll associated with collective; it makes any nap-of-the-earth flying very difficult. I feel that they may be using collective position to assist in the dissymmetry of lift effects (Which I feel is incorrect, as the collective changes the pitch of all blades equally [knowing that this may produce a slight difference in the advancing and retreating sides, I feel it shouldn't be nearly as much as simulated currently]).

The dissymmetry of lift, Vne, and retreating blade stall all seem to need a little more attention. Flying above Vne doesn't seem to produce any negative effects if you are maintaining a straight and level forward flight. If, however, you try to pitch or roll the aircraft (even slightly) the first consequence is a rapid decrease in rotor rpm. After the initial rpm droop, the helicopter pitches nose down and is unrecoverable (even with full down collective and aft cyclic). IRL I have only felt the precursors leading up to retreating blade stall once, and it was due to acute mountain turbulence while flying near Vne. The helicopter pitched nose up and slowed itself down as a result (I lowered collective a little and continued the deceleration until reaching a safe speed for the turbulence). From what I have learned, this is the main effect of retreating blade stall as well as a roll in the direction of the retreating blade (not the uncontrollable pitch nose down).

Something else to talk about is the rotor rpm droop when pitching nose up in a fast forward flight creating a high G-load (but not excessive). I have noticed this quite a bit, and it is very unsettling. What happens IRL is that the blades cone (creating higher rpm due to the Coriolis Effect) and the Lift Vector in front of the axis of rotation (due to the upward airflow through the rotors, creating a resultant relative Wind that is below the rotational airflow). This shift produces less drag on the blades, and even an acceleration vector in a region of the blades, which also produces higher RPM. So the effect in game is opposite of what it should be. Something to note, however, is that when the helicopter leaves the higher G-load stage of flight and into a normal or low G-load stage of flight (the blades flatten out from their coned position and the resultant relative wind may no longer be below the rotational airflow) the RPM will see a decay that could be very substantial depending on how much of a G-load change there was between these two stages.

Edited October 2, 2011 by RUBIX

[ocramweb 0]

The ROLL

The unequal distribution of lift on the rotor disc (Dis-symmetry of lift) have effectively for effect the tendency of the heli to roll toward the retreating side, now what about the blade flapping ? is it not the solution against this Roll to permit the blades to flap. And as far as I know it does not seem to happen in Toh, the rotor disc seems to be fix ( maybe only on the 3d side) But anyway in short Dis-symmetry of lift induce Roll which can be solved by allowing the blade to Flap.

Now once said the association of the roll with the collective should go back to the cyclic.

we know that the blade pitch angle is lower on the advancing side of the disk to compensate for the increased blade airspeed on that side. Blade pitch angle is increased on the retreating blade side to compensate for the decreased blade airspeed on that side. These changes in blade pitch are introduced either through the blade feathering mechanism or blade flapping.

When made with the blade feathering mechanism, the changes are called cyclic feathering. Pitch changes are made to individual blades independent of the others in the system and are controlled by the cyclic pitch control.

The VNE that was my concern when I asked about that induce dive, that should not occur, but now we are testing this into OA environment, lets see in Toh one as it could change things.

Now Regarding RPM, effectively g-loading the rotor with the cyclic should increase RPM and not the opposite, same for disk loading, and yes doing S turns during an auto-rotation to gain RPM and loosing them instead IS very unsettling. Now might just be related to the governor itself here

PS:Xcuse my english I do my best :P

[Chris CDN 10]

Now Regarding RPM, effectively g-loading the rotor with the cyclic should increase RPM and not the opposite, same for disk loading, and yes doing S turns during an auto-rotation to gain RPM and loosing them instead IS very unsettling. Now might just be related to the governor itself here

My thoughts exactly. Aft cyclic should increase rotor RPM. I could be wrong, but think about what happens in an auto.

[MD500Enthusiast 10]

Ok my two cents, i played the community beta for a couple of hours and i do have a private license for helicopter, i've only flown the r22 and r44. There are several issues which already have been discussed, the right rolling tendency in level flight, the almost unresponsive rudder input, too much ground effect, no settling with power/vortex ring state, the shaking of the helicopter when entering ETL and losing ETL, the non existent descent when collective is full down, the excessive amount of bank required to turn the helicopter, being able to climb almost forever with no foward airspeed and full collective. I haven't really noticed low rotor rpm effects either but i haven't really paid too much attention to it, whenever you move the mouse cursor your POV also moves with the mouse and when you have track ir that's really annoying, in training helicopters there's always a trim string on the cannopy which would help a lot in terms of knowing when the helicopter is flying in trim because even though there's a slip indicator in the cockpit it seems it's not functional, also even though i've programmed my throttle on my x65f stick it doesn't work i still have to click the throttle button on my collective and it's either full or idle, there's also not tail wanning effects but maybe wind hasn't been implemented into the preview yet. What's most troubling for me is that it's pretty much impossible to make an autoroation landing that feels right. When i cut the power by either clicking the throttle to idle or by pressing the starter key which does the same thing in this game, the helicopter starts feeling VERY sluggish and rudder input doesn't really do much to help you fly in trim so as i'm descending i'm always flying a little side ways and when i flare it's rolling WAY too much to the right, i think they wanted to simulate translating tendency but a helicopter doesn't roll like that then as i touch down BAM dynamic roll over, what's funny is it doesn't roll over to the side but fowards LOL. Also airspeed is very tough to get rid of, i shouldn't have to pitch back so far to slow down but maybe that's just the md500 but i doubt it. You can youtube md500enthusiast on youtube of me doing autorotation during my r44 training.

Edited October 3, 2011 by MD500Enthusiast

[RUBIX 10]

A lot of that has been covered and I am glad you have summarized them and are keeping them active in the threads. I do like that you mentioned something new that needs to be discussed.

in training helicopters there's always a trim string on the cannopy which would help a lot in terms of knowing when the helicopter is flying in trim

This is very necessary. I hope to see some sort of trim indicator for the cockpits.

In reply to some of the UI problems you are having

i still have to click the throttle button on my collective and it's either full or idle

The helicopters are governor controlled, and TOH is assuming that the governor will always be managing the throttle, thus no need for an analog throttle. If you have bound the throttle to and analog control, it wont work. I have mine bound to the hat left 270 and right 090 directions for easier start sequences.

whenever you move the mouse cursor your POV also moves with the mouse

You need to go to the options menu --> game options --> freelook interface (change to disabled). This will stop the mouse from controlling the view (make sure you unbind the mouse from the cyclic controls, or you will be moving the cyclic when you move the mouse). You will have to hold the left alt if you would like to use the mouse to click inside the cockpit. I have the left alt bound to my joystick and the click to use also bound to my joystick...This way I can use TrackIR to view the cockpit interaction and click it without taking my hands off the controls.

If anyone wants me to fully describe my setup, please PM me.

Edited October 3, 2011 by RUBIX

[Chris CDN 10]

Ok my two cents...

You've managed to post everything that's been bothering us RW guys in one post. I know the devs aren't watching but good to see another voice on the forums. Welcome.

Let's keep on it folks, someone will notice eventually.

[MD500Enthusiast 10]

Thanks for the info rubix. Also i just noticed another thing that i don't think anyone's mentioned, there's no altittude lost when banking without adding collective. Another thing is when adding collective there's not enough yaw/torque effect same as reducing collective. Also the md500 is fully articulated, and i don't see any signs of ground resonance when making hard landings.

Edited October 3, 2011 by MD500Enthusiast

[Zipper5 74]

I know the devs aren't watching but good to see another voice on the forums.

We are always watching.