Can't fly in a straight line (auto trim off.).

[Archosaurusrev 12]

First of all, using a mouse and keyboard.

What is with this rolling to the right bullshit?

Have the devs ever been in a helicopter?

Now I know helos aren't stable but why do these roll so much?

Does it have something to do with the collective, which I can't adjust as I only have a mouse and keyboard?

Help would be needed. :(

Edit: I am also very aware the if you press the left "pedal" and set trim then it should counteract this.

Seeing as I have a keyboard, I press X and set trim, it rolls to the left!

Help please.

Edited July 18, 2011 by Archosaurusrev

[RSF TheCapulet 59]

Set the pedals mapping to your mouse so you can set the trip properly?

[Archosaurusrev 12]

I was thinking that too, didn't work. :(

Good suggestion nonetheless.

[liquidpinky 11]

The tail rotor on helicopters create their own wash, this will affect them slightly although it is more pronounced on take off when the aircraft will drift side ways if not compensated for.

I have had lots of fun with this while trying to fly my RC heli indoors. XD

You really need to have some form of analogue control to try and get it balanced before setting the trim, you need a little cyclic and rudder to sort it out.

Edited July 18, 2011 by Liquidpinky

[kylania 568]

You really need to have some form of analogue control to try and get it balanced before setting the trim, you need a little cyclic and rudder to sort it out.

Unless this game is shipping with a custom controller + pedals, they'd better make it keyboard flyable without pedals. :) As it stands now it's nearly impossible for many to control since the helicopter immediately begins uncontrollable and drastic rolling and tilting from the start.

Maybe if they made the X/C work the same as Q/Z so we could apply a little and keep it applied rather than having to constantly press X or W and always end up overcompensating in doing so.

[Archosaurusrev 12]

Unless this game is shipping with a custom controller + pedals, they'd better make it keyboard flyable without pedals. :) As it stands now it's nearly impossible for many to control since the helicopter immediately begins uncontrollable and drastic rolling and tilting from the start.

Maybe if they made the X/C work the same as Q/Z so we could apply a little and keep it applied rather than having to constantly press X or W and always end up overcompensating in doing so.

That would fix it.

You have a 0.000001% chance to set the trim well with a keyboard, that means it's about luck. :(

Doing what is suggested above would fix it. Irl when you set trim/change pressure to pedals it STAYS set.

Jesus fucking christ, I've seen videos of people flying in FSX with no pedals, only a mouse and keyboard.

[-Sn1PeR- 10]

Unless this game is shipping with a custom controller + pedals, they'd better make it keyboard flyable without pedals. :) As it stands now it's nearly impossible for many to control since the helicopter immediately begins uncontrollable and drastic rolling and tilting from the start.

Maybe if they made the X/C work the same as Q/Z so we could apply a little and keep it applied rather than having to constantly press X or W and always end up overcompensating in doing so.

Isn't that why auto trim exists in the first place? You are asking to emulate a very nuanced analog control with on/off switches. I personally would rather them do exactly what they are attempting to -- give various difficulties to toggle on/off flight-aids rather than dumbing down the game so that it's flyable with a keyboard.

Edited July 18, 2011 by -Sn1PeR-

[-DirTyDeeDs--Ziggy- 0]

Sniper,

providing analog control over tailrotor axis X/C would only affect keyboard control systems, WILL NOT dumb the game down in any way shape or form, but rather make it more realistic when using that hardware.

Edited July 19, 2011 by [DirTyDeeDs]-Ziggy-

[-Sn1PeR- 10]

How are you suggesting they provide analog control with two buttons? They could add bands (ie. 10% step sizes, etc.), but that still would not be sufficient for perfect trim.

[celery 8]

How are you suggesting they provide analog control with two buttons? They could add bands (ie. 10% step sizes, etc.), but that still would not be sufficient for perfect trim.

What do you care, you're not going to fly with a keyboard anyway. :confused:

The rudder-throttle keyboard assimilation seems like a good idea, and I don't see how it will dumb down your joystick gameplay.

[-Sn1PeR- 10]

What do you care, you're not going to fly with a keyboard anyway. :confused:

The rudder-throttle keyboard assimilation seems like a good idea, and I don't see how it will dumb down your joystick gameplay.

I was curious, but I get the point. I think I'm done here.

[-DirTyDeeDs--Ziggy- 0]

How are you suggesting they provide analog control with two buttons? They could add bands (ie. 10% step sizes, etc.), but that still would not be sufficient for perfect trim.

the same way they did with keybinds of INCREASE THRUST and DECREASE THRUST. press and hold X (or C) while it cycles to its max 'value'.

there would have to be a way for the value to get back to neutral state...

sounds good, right? :rolleyes:

Edited July 19, 2011 by [DirTyDeeDs]-Ziggy-

[PELHAM 10]

I have a 25 year old joystick somewhere in the loft with manual trim wheels. I think I might use that lol.

Why don't they introduce manual trim in the keyboard so if you press shift and W,A,S,D,Z or X it gives 1 measure of trim in the given direction? (I think someone has sort of mentioned this.)

Also lets face it - if it's a realistic flight sim it's reasonable to expect the player to use something more than a mouse and keyboard as standard. You would never be able to control a real helicopter using such basic input devices.

[RSF TheCapulet 59]

Also lets face it - if it's a realistic flight sim it's reasonable to expect the player to use something more than a mouse and keyboard as standard. You would never be able to control a real helicopter using such basic input devices.

Your common sense is showing. :O

[DnA 5143]

Also lets face it - if it's a realistic flight sim it's reasonable to expect the player to use something more than a mouse and keyboard as standard.

We will look at improving this, but generally: this is one of the reasons we've included auto-trim. Not having as many analogue axes when using keyboard and mouse means this system can handle at least one for you :)

[Archosaurusrev 12]

I wasn't asking to make it as easy to fly with the good ol' combo of a mouse and keyboard, that isn't possible.

Flight sims should be better optimised for sticks.

But some kind of "increase thrust" and "decrease thrust" for keyboard turning would help us keyboard people who don't have a stick (Yet, hopefully :D.).

[-DirTyDeeDs--Ziggy- 0]

I wasn't asking to make it as easy to fly with the good ol' combo of a mouse and keyboard, that isn't possible.

it's already as easy to fly with mouse and keyboard as it is with joystick, it just takes practice.

reference:

[Archosaurusrev 12]

-Ziggy-;1985736']it's already as easy to fly with mouse and keyboard as it is with joystick' date=' it just takes practice.

reference:

Yeah, I can fly good with the mouse + keyboard but usually flightsim equipment allows you to more freely maneuver.

For people like me who are used to the keyboard control can get over that limit. My only problem is trim setting, everything else I do as competently.

[liquidpinky 11]

They could maybe make it similar to what I have on my RC controller, the trim is a separate slider below and to the side of the stick.

This could be adjusted with plus and minus key assignments for them and maybe have a visible trim setting shown somewhere on the HUD for these.

I would find this usefull myself to set trim up before take off etc even though I use a flight stick.

Is it just set like it is in ToH, by a single toggle trim on/off, in a real helicopter?

[kylania 568]

Isn't that why auto trim exists in the first place? You are asking to emulate a very nuanced analog control with on/off switches. I personally would rather them do exactly what they are attempting to -- give various difficulties to toggle on/off flight-aids rather than dumbing down the game so that it's flyable with a keyboard.

The problem is AutoTrim doesn't exist in Veteran mode and I don't want to play in Recruit mode. Regular has the option to turn it on, but Veteran doesn't. For something that's so completely critical to the essence of playability for the game it should be on or at least optional for all levels of difficulty, like 3rd Person View.

Flying with AT on with keyboard/mouse is challenging to get right but actually doable. Feels like a more difficult version of what we have now and that I like. Landing with the ground effect wind is a deadly affair for me so far! heh

With Autotrim off it's completely and utterly uncontrollable bad. A "makes me want to cancel my pre-order" bad. That's a very bad bad to be. :)

[PELHAM 10]

Anyone noticed that if you are careless with the Joystick throttle it has a bad effect and causes most of the trim problems?

Make slow increases and decreases with the throttle or you get bad torque effects.

Fast throttle increase = roll + yaw right

Fast throttle decrease = roll +yaw to the left

I think that's normal in a helicopter? Once I learned to be cautious with the throttle and anticipate how much power I'm going to need - I don't even worry about Auto-trim now.

If you have any bad habits from Arma 2 - e.g. slap the throttle on full for take off and cruising you will have bad stability. You only need 25% - 50% power for most situations. 50% - 75% for entering a hover if speed is low and you have some downward velocity.

Probably the same with the keyboard throttle keys?

[nightsta1ker 10]

Some of you guys need to check out google or wikipedia and learn about helicopter flight behavior before you criticize the Devs for what is happening in the game.

I will school you up.

The effect of the main rotor being turned by the engine/transmission creates torque. This torque causes the body of the helicopter to want to rotate in the opposite direction of the rotor blades. This requires a tail rotor to counter this torque. The tail rotor can also be used conveniently to control yaw left or right. If you increase the amount of power to the rotor system you also increase the torque and need additional pedal to counter the torque. Now, with that tail rotor spinning and pushing air sideways it gives the helicopter a tendency to drift in the direction of tail rotor thrust and also gives it a rolling tendency. This is all in a hover, mind you, the dynamics change in forward flight (just to make things complicated). In forward flight the vertical stabilizer on the tail takes over and uses the wind created by forward flight to stabilize the tail. This results in the pilot not needing to apply left pedal as much or at all. If you continue to apply left pedal the helicopter will want to yaw and possibly roll. Try reducing your pedal input as you accelerate forward. Also, try not to be too liberal with your power changes as any input can drastically change the flight condition. Use smooth slow inputs, be gentle and careful. Just to complicate matters further, if you accelerate too fast, past the red line on the airspeed indicator, you will encounter retreating blade stall. The forward airspeed of the helicopter coupled with the rotation of the blades means that the blade on the right is moving faster than the blade on the left, although they are rotating at the same speed, you have to add the helicopters airspeed on one side and subtract it from the other. This dissymetry of speed causes a dissymetry of lift on either side of the rotor disc and the helicopter wants to roll left. This actually starts happening at very low airspeeds but is countered by the flapping mechanism in the rotor head, allowing the advancing blade to flap up and the retreating blade to flap down. As the advancing blade flaps up the angle of attack is decreased and thus lift is decreased. Adversely the opposite is happening on the retreating side, so the airspeed of the advancing and retreating blades are very different, the lift remains the same. The foreward airspeed of the helicopter is limited to how far the blades can flap before they cannot compensate for that dissymetry of lift any more.

---------- Post added at 05:31 AM ---------- Previous post was at 05:25 AM ----------

Now that I have demonstrated some of the reasons why the helicopter is so darn squirrelly, I can only offer the advice that you need to keep in mind that you should be constantly adjusting things. Any control input is going to have a chain reaction of change to all the other inputs, and the behavior will vary with airspeed. Helicopters are very consistent with their inconsistencies. Once you get used to them, it all becomes second nature, but at first, it's like trying to juggle two chainsaws while riding a unicycle with a glass of water balanced on your nose.

[twisted 128]

The problem is AutoTrim doesn't exist in Veteran mode and I don't want to play in Recruit mode. Regular has the option to turn it on, but Veteran doesn't. For something that's so completely critical to the essence of playability for the game it should be on or at least optional for all levels of difficulty, like 3rd Person View.

)

if memory serves me right you can edit your config files to change the built in settings and give yourself autotrim at expert level. its like that in arma2 and should be like that in this tkoh preview.

not by my pc so can't tell you the exact file though.

@nightsta1ker - damn interesting read. always good to get pilot knwoledge on what it is really supposed to be like. seems like BIS is getting lots right.

Edited July 22, 2011 by twisted

[Archosaurusrev 12]

Flight model is very good, to add.

All we keyboard people need is a slider kind of meter for pedal control (Like the throttle right now.) and were good to go.

[PELHAM 10]

Some of you guys need to check out google or wikipedia and learn about helicopter flight behavior before you criticize the Devs for what is happening in the game.

Agree with nightsta1ker 100%!

Read Chickenhawk by Robert Mason and he says the same thing. You have many forces acting in different directions at the same time. Each time you mess with pedals, collective / cyclic things change and you have to counteract them.

E.G. pushing the pedals makes the tail rotor work either more or less. For a given power setting the tail will be taking more or less power away from the rotor when you push the pedals. So the heli will also climb or descend a little.

Mason describes escaping from a low hover over a minefield he was trapped in (overloaded helicopter) by pushing the right pedal. This allowed enough power into the main rotor for him to climb a little and hover back over the fence.

The Helicopter was loaded with a cargo of rockets so if he had not understood that he would have been a dead man!

The more I learn to fly TKOH the more I realise the DEVs have it right. I agree people who fly with keyboard may need extra things but I have tried and you can't react in time (not enough fingers lol). You need a joystick with a twist grip for the pedals - minimum.