Supreme Court Strikes Rule Banning Violent Video Game Sale to Kids

[maddogx 13]

so what is this discussion all about ?

Originally about what I posted above, but it has, predictably, mutated into a discussion about the effects of violent video games on kids.

that someone want to remove sticker and allow shopkeepers to sell anything to anyone ?

No, I believe that's the part you've misunderstood.

cause i see it like this "let shopkeeper do money no matter how, sell anything to anyone" ?

They can, in theory, but they don't. Most retail stores in the U.S. don't sell violent games to kids; but they aren't legally required not to. This whole thread is really only about the legal requirement.

cause this ban (age information sticker) is for shopkeeper to refuse sell to kid and information to parents (whether to buy or not if kid asked for it)

Age information sticker != ban, at least not in the U.S.

so what is problem? you have shops and you loose 1000 customers cause 500 eight years kids and 500 parents came to buy GTA but seen sticker "18" ?

of course seller must control what he sell and to whom he sell what product

They do.

[vilas 473]

in many countries there are tickets fee when seller sell unappropriated product to kid , it is normal that there is legal control over shopkeeper and +18 products purchase after showing ID card

i am surprised that US shopkeeper do not have legal obey to control ID if someone want to buy +18 rated product because of ticket/fee to shopkeeper,

tickets are given if there is proven and reported sell of +18 product to kid , it is normal in many countries (without control, punishment, all just want bigger profit , bigger sales)

in my country there is a hole (as in many things in not-strict law which say "maybe, yes or not") and there is no legal punishment for it (shame) and shopkeeper aims ONLY at profit and sell anything to anyone "to have more money" which is criticised but busines lobby is too strong to have better control over supermarkets :(

such ban works only in alcohol, tobacco etc.

so this sticker is dead-law (or at least interpretable , need good lawyer) here too (no ticket in case of games or movies, most of cinemakeepers won't sell kid ticket to horror movie, but it is hard to punish those who do it ) :( but in many countries shopkeeper can get ticket and i thought that US join them (to rule is to control and have ability to punish if necessary ),

shopkeepers do not think about anything else than profit (so this issue is also important as state control over business and sellers to make them obey more)

----

2 questions:

1) how you would like to make shopkeeper to keep limit ? if there is no ticket fee, than middle finger and sell anything , noone will punish me , just counting $

2) you have 2 shops, one is not selling to 8y.o. kids games rated 16+, another sells

who will bankrupt ? seller who follows "age limit" or "one who not" , who will have 1000 of consumers and who will not have one because he refueses to sell +18 to kids ?

in such circumstances - how to force this second to obey it ??? he only wants more money , nothing more ?

or what in case if 2 shops have different lawyers, you will bankrupt cause you are small shop and cannot afford rich lawyer like megastore supermarket ? such law would give you as small shopkeeper a hand

law must have possibility to control shopkeepers, cause not many people are self-responsible if there is no hangmans axe over their neck

lack of punishment, lack of control means anarchy or dead laws like in my country (opposite to some wise EU countries), when game is rated and ... so what... ticket was not given to some shops because there is no strict paragraph (there is but not so strict, need interpretation of lawyer and arbitrary) to punish big megastores , oposite to small stores (good vs. bad lawyers)

all here in my country is balance on law or outlaw, all is interpretable - so hard to have one strict paragraph (depends from jugde, prosecutor, policeman interpretation) if US wanted strict regulation it would make order (less interpretation versions)

Edited June 29, 2011 by vilas

[dmarkwick 261]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AZHOKiHj7O0&feature=related

:]

Everyone reading this thread has rage quit at some time :)

What you don't see is the aftermath - that is, the sheepish realisation that they over-reacted to something totally unimportant :D

[dysta 10]

In my place (Hong Kong) the rating check is also "choosy-choosy". I remember when I going to buy Mass Effect the shopkeeper demand me an ID check even I am already 18. But another shop I gotta buy GTA4 and no any check at all.

[vilas 473]

In my place (Hong Kong) the rating check is also "choosy-choosy". I remember when I going to buy Mass Effect the shopkeeper demand me an ID check even I am already 18. But another shop I gotta buy GTA4 and no any check at all.

without strict, not interpretable law, the more honest will bankrupt and less honest will win, it is a shame

cause it eliminates from market... responsible sellers and leaves only greed without conscience

thats why there should be regulation to protect such "fair" sellers against "unfair" to keep balance in market

cause issue is not only in game rating and limits of sale, but also in "ways for controlling sellers" , ways to "avoid bankruptcy" of fair sellers (without paragraph you cannot force anything on seller)

cause people you forget about this issue - fair trade and free market competition

those who "try to sell fair" cannot go bankrupt cause "not fair" seller competition "can do all without consequence" and you lost clients "cause you obey some unwritten rules"

Edited June 29, 2011 by vilas

[Hans Ludwig 0]

i am surprised that US shopkeeper do not have legal obey to control ID if someone want to buy +18 rated product because of ticket/fee to shopkeeper,

tickets are given if there is proven and reported sell of +18 product to kid , it is normal in many countries (without control, punishment, all just want bigger profit , bigger sales)

in my country there is a hole and there is no legal punishment for it (shame) and shopkeeper aims ONLY at profit and sell anything to anyone "to have more money" which is criticised but busines lobby is too strong to have better control over supermarkets :(

such ban works only in alcohol, tobacco etc.

so this sticker is blind-law here too (no ticket in case of games or movies, most of cinemakeepers won't sell kid ticket to horror movie, but it is hard to punish those who do it ) :( but in many countries shopkeeper can get ticket and i thought that US join them (to rule is to control and have ability to punish if necessary ),

shopkeepers do not think about anything else than profit (so this issue is also important as state control over business and sellers to make them obey more)

You alone have convinced me that Poland has to be hell on earth, zero freedom, government intervention at all levels of society (in the bedroom, marriage, hobbies, work, symbols, etc...) and everyone in your country goes by the name of Vilas.

so what is this discussion all about ?

Maybe you should have read the article?

[vilas 473]

hell is not control, but lack of control and lack of paragraphs to punish but seems once again by ignorance you understand all upside down

hell is always there where state has no control over situation (some African regions where gangs rule, favelas in Brasil where gangs rule - those are "ideal liberal areas where only power, money and profit matters" ) not where state can control business , hell is always where damn liberals take control, there always cheaters, fraudants and liars make big money and rest has to suffer because of greed ,

and your "freedom" leads to situation when "honest must bankrupt" and "not honest will win"

Edited June 29, 2011 by vilas

[Tonci87 163]

Viloas, its not about removing the damn sticker, you totally missunderstood that. The Sticker is fine and should stay there.

[MrBump 10]

The point of this ruling, and the reasoning behind the ruling is not whether kids get to buy adult games, this is about whether adults get to buy adult games.

If you make it an offence to sell these games to minors then the major chains will just stop stocking these titles for fear of prosecution, this would then lead to a chilling effect on the game industry where they would self-censor so as to not lose that massive market, the upshot being that that games with adult themes would be much less likely to be made.

This is why laws need to be carefully thought out and discussed, and not created as a knee-jerk 'think of the children' action... high-minded laws don't necessarily create order, sometimes they lead to more crime, prohibition in the US for instance.

[maddogx 13]

If you make it an offence to sell these games to minors then the major chains will just stop stocking these titles for fear of prosecution

As Vilas pointed out, it is already an offence to sell adult games to minors in some countries, for example Germany. Over here, if it says 18+ on the box, the guy behind the counter will demand to see photo ID if you look a day younger than 25. Retailers can face major fines for selling adult rated games to minors, but they still stock them. They're just more careful about who they sell them to.

[vilas 473]

The point of this ruling, and the reasoning behind the ruling is not whether kids get to buy adult games, this is about whether adults get to buy adult games.

how ? i thought is about KIDS not adults, how it concerns to people over 18 ?

[MrBump 10]

As Vilas pointed out, it is already an offence to sell adult games to minors in some countries, for example Germany. Over here, if it says 18+ on the box, the guy behind the counter will demand to see photo ID if you look a day younger than 25. Retailers can face major fines for selling adult rated games to minors, but they still stock them. They're just more careful about who they sell them to.

Huh? Games with excessive violence are either banned or censored in Germany. Take Dead Rising for instance...

From Wikipedia:

Due to its graphic violence and thus obvious fulfilment of at least one of German BPjM's indexing criteria, the Unterhaltungssoftware Selbstkontrolle, Germany's board responsible for rating entertainment software, has refused to rate the game. Microsoft does not allow unrated games to be published for the Xbox 360 in Germany, effectively halting the production of a German version of the game.

[vilas 473]

don't turn upside down intentions, one or two bans even for adult (which i don't understand) with parental control (age limits) and sale control (also age limits) and law to enforce limits when it regard KIDS

legal control of purchase by kids (in shops) is other thing than ban for adult (sensless here)

some things are not for children and law must take care when parents or seller do not (greed, sales) or unfair competition

Edited June 29, 2011 by vilas

[maddogx 13]

Huh? Games with excessive violence are either banned or censored in Germany. Take Dead Rising for instance...

Certain excessively violent games are banned or censored here, yes, but what does that have to do with anything?

There are still more than enough violent games rated 18+ that I can buy from a retail store, and the fact remains that they are A: still stocked, and B: require you to show ID before you can buy them.

[vilas 473]

i wonder who in situation of lack of "paragraph" can guarantee "fair competition" between 2 shops

one which avoid to sell to kid

second which sell anything

than first lost clients and gone bankrupt , all because of lack of legal possibility to punish second shop (which took clients by breaking not written law which first obey)

[MrBump 10]

Certain excessively violent games are banned or censored here, yes, but what does that have to do with anything?

We're taking about censorship and you don't think German censorship has anything to do with it? There is no doubt that publishers self censor for the German market, what good is a game that can't be advertised or that can't be sold where minors could see the product or reviewed in a game magazine?

Edited June 29, 2011 by MrBump

[maddogx 13]

We're taking about censorship and you don't think German censorship has anything to do with it? There is no doubt that publishers self censor for the German market, what good is a game that can't be advertised or that can't be sold where minors could see the product or reviewed in a game magazine?

We were talking about your claim that retailers would stop stocking and selling violent games if they weren't allowed to sell them to kids:

If you make it an offence to sell these games to minors then the major chains will just stop stocking these titles for fear of prosecution

I am saying this is false.

How is censorship relevant either way?

Edited June 29, 2011 by MadDogX

[MrBump 10]

We were talking about your claim that retailers would stop stocking and selling violent games if they weren't allowed to sell them to kids:

How is censorship relevant either way?

Because restricting the sale has lead to self-censorship by the publisher or in the case of MS Live or especially in the case of PSN network, for the games to not be released at all, which was kind of my point. Germany is not America (and litigation must also be taken into account) but it does show how publishers have actually decided not to bother releasing titles because of this law.

Edited June 29, 2011 by MrBump

[maddogx 13]

Because restricting the sale has lead to self-censorship by the publisher or in the case of MS Live or especially in the case of PSN network, for the games to not be released at all, which was kind of my point. Germany is not America (and litigation must also be taken into account) but does show how publishers have actually decided not to bother releasing titles because of this law.

The self censorship of publishers in countries like Germany is due to the fact that the USK (German ESRB) is so extreme when it comes to handing out ratings for violent games. Anything with extreme violence is denied a rating, so games need to be censored in order to attain an 18+ rating.

Are you suggesting that a ban on selling R (17+) rated games to minors in the U.S. would lead the publishers to censor their games in order to achieve a lower rating?

[MrBump 10]

The self censorship of publishers in countries like Germany is due to the fact that the USK (German ESRB) is so extreme when it comes to handing out ratings for violent games. Anything with extreme violence is denied a rating, so games need to be censored in order to attain an 18+ rating.

Are you suggesting that a ban on selling R (17+) rated games to minors in the U.S. would lead the publishers to censor their games in order to achieve a lower rating?

From what I've read this is a ban on the sale of violent video games to minors, not the banning of the sale of R rated games, nothing to do with ratings.

From the Business Insider:

If the law had passed, it would have imposed a $1,000 fine on retailers who sold or rented a violent video game to a minor. Violent games are defined as featuring the "killing, maiming, dismembering or sexual assaulting" or a human image and "appeals to deviant or morbid behavior."

[Hans Ludwig 0]

In the end, there is no need for government intervention when it's up to the parents to decide what is best for their family. A part of me could care less what California does, but then their law might have a ripple effect of making it hard for me to purchase certain titles.

[MrBump 10]

In the end, there is no need for government intervention when it's up to the parents to decide what is best for their family. A part of me could care less what California does, but then their law might have a ripple effect of making it hard for me to purchase certain titles.

I read the law, if it was passed ,would have most likely had a knock on effect into other states and also other media types.

[maddogx 13]

From what I've read this is a ban on the sale of violent video games to minors, not the banning of the sale of R rated games, nothing to do with ratings.

Well, the two are pretty much equivalent, with the exception of games where the violence is so toned down as to merit a T rating. (Or the few AO rated games, which can't be sold to minors anyway.)

But you've once again gone off on a tangent and skirted around my question. So I'll ask it again:

If minors were banned from purchasing violent games in the U.S., do you believe that the developers would just stop creating such games?

[abs 2]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AZHOKiHj7O0&feature=related

:]

You've done nothing to back up your arbitrary statistics which I called you on. You pretty much ignored my post entirely. No offence, but the information you provide is unreliable at best. Stop making up numbers that mean nothing.

Here is a link to a YouTube search for the term angry.

There are angry cats, angry birds, angry reporters, angry ginger kids, and even a

. Just because you link to a bunch of videos that show angry gamers it doesn't mean that there are not other people who are socially rude despite age, race, gender, and profession.

Your point is pointless.

Abs

I respect you very much as an addon maker, because I believe that you produce work of a certain quality and would like to thank you for that. However, my posts above are only reflecting your personal opinions which you try to pass of as fact with no basis on anything whatsoever.

Edited June 29, 2011 by Abs

[MrBump 10]

If minors were banned from purchasing violent games in the U.S., do you believe that the developers would just stop creating such games?

Knowing the family friendly policies of companies like Walmart and Toys R Us who are amoung the largest sellers of videogames in the US, I would see them shying away from those game titles labled as 'detrimental to children', and if the difference in violence rating is say, some dismembership, then why wouldn't a publisher just remove it, they have to answer to stockholders?

As Mike Gallagher, head of the Entertainment Software Association said:

"It could have a distinct chilling effect on the types of games that are made, the types of games that are marketed, and certainly the types of games that are sold, and how widely available they are. All of those things could be impacted."

Edited June 29, 2011 by MrBump