Bush unpopular in berlin

[IsthatyouJohnWayne 0]

"No these demonstrations are a new phenomenon that came with Bush. As I said, American presidents have always been very warmly welcomed by the crowds in Europe. Always since WW2. Bush Sr. was also very popular, Ronnie also"

What? thats not true ,there have been a hard core of protesters for decades, since the 60s really

The idea thats its just new and because of Bush is rubbish, certainly there might be more ,a lot more than normal,but there always is in a war atmosphere

There might be a more popular anti 'US-War' sentiment but theres always been a core of 'anti' protesters ....

I.T.Y.J.W.

.....

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (IsthatyouJohnWayne @ May 23 2002,19:52)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">"No these demonstrations are a new phenomenon that came with Bush. As I said, American presidents have always been very warmly welcomed by the crowds in Europe. Always since WW2. Bush Sr. was also very popular, Ronnie also"

What? thats not true ,there have been a hard core of protesters for decades, since the 60s really

The idea thats its just new and because of Bush is rubbish, certainly there might be more ,a lot more than normal,but there always is in a war atmosphere

There might be a more popular anti 'US-War' sentiment but theres always been a core of 'anti' protesters ....

I.T.Y.J.W.

.....<span id='postcolor'>

No, I have to admit Longinius is right here. In fact all presidents were always warmly welcome in Germany. That is why we got those: "Ich bin ein Berliner" and "Mr. Gorbatchov, please tear down that wall". But that was in the times of the cold war. East Germany was occupied by communists which keept families apart. Of course western president symbolised hope at those times.

Clinton however was a very special visitor in Germany. People realy realy liked him since he shared our views on many many issues. But I can only repeat what I said, those demonstrations werent realy reflecting our attitudes! Those people on the roads are called "colorful birds" here, and they basically protest against anything.

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Albert Schweizer @ May 23 2002,20:19)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">No, I have to admit Longinius is right here.<span id='postcolor'>

You mean denoir, not Longinius What are our political views so similar that you confuse us two?

Actually, I will concede on that point to I.T.Y.J.W. Americans were not popular during the Vietnam war. Hmm.. was Vietnam war good? Hmm... I see some form of pattern here. Exchange the urge to get rid of 'communism' for 'terrorism' and you get a very good Vietnam<->Iraq mapping.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Clinton however was a very special visitor in Germany. People realy realy liked him since he shared our views on many many issues. <span id='postcolor'>

Clinton was a special visitor everywhere. Everybody liked him, except perhaps the Americans.

[Akira 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ May 23 2002,20:47)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Clinton was a special visitor everywhere. Everybody liked him, except perhaps the Americans.<span id='postcolor'>

Got that right.

He sucked.

[Longinius 1]

"No, I have to admit Longinius is right here."

I know I am right, all though I havent really said anything about this yet

I find it interesting though that some of you are misreading Denoirs posts on purpose, neglecting to consider some of the things he is saying. His main point wasn't the number of demonstrators, it was the pure fact that the negative greeting outweighed the positive one greatly. And that is usually not the case. And no, not every one of those demonstraters were Arabs. As you see in the pictures, many are ordinary germans.

And honestly Albert, I dont think you can speak for the general population of Germany either. Even if you are German. That is a part of the democratic process, that one person can't make policy if he hasnt been voted into office. Sure, the people you know and people in your region might be pro Bush but that does not mean the rest of Germany is. Politics are often very local, opinions vary alot across a nation. If there were 50 000 people demonstrating you can bet your arse there are many more sharing the opinion. The real majority of ANY sizable l party or cause rarely demonstrate. And never at the same time and place. 50 000 people or more expressing negative opinions is rather much if you ask me. Its seldom seen (except recently when it comes to the US or EU protests).

The fact is Bush is one of the least popular American presidents in modern time with the international crowd. Why? Well, probably multiple factors. The war is a major contributer though.

[Warin 0]

Vain attempt to lighten things up....

You german folks out there...is it true that 'Ich bin ein Berliner' really means 'I am a Doughnut' ?

I had a german speaking friend tell me this...and if so, I wonder if Kennedy had jelly filling?

On the topic:

I have, since 9/11, seen a lot of Americans who have absolutely no idea how disliked their nation is throughout the world. To me that speaks to the inherent isolationism of the American people. I dont think that is a bad thing neccesarily. The problem is that the average American has no idea of how their government stomps around the world trying to conform everyone else to their views of how the world should be... whether they want to be like Americans or not.

Dubya is picking a popular 'terrorist' nation and going for it, in spite of the fact that he has almost no support among his allies. This fall will be a really interesting time...because I cant see anyone being insane enough to try to do something in the middle of a desert in the middle of summer

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

No, of course they werent all arabs (just as you are not always right ). But the ones that caused the fights with the police were.

But you also have to look at what message those demonstrators intended to bring forward.

- Many of them were actually Hardcore pacifists, who neglect any kind of agression and dont allow any exclusion.

- Some of them were simply Anti-american (some of them burned flags). Mostly arabs and former communists from the DDR, now those people cant be taken seriously.

- Some critisized Bush for his attitude towards the kyoto treaty (I respect that).

-Some were angry about the ignorance of the US towards the EU (especially unions because of the new illegal steel taxes of the US) and the rapid intervention in Afghanistan.

Now, those are indeed issues to be discussed. But to say that the Germans didnt welcome Bush or heavily demonstrated against him is silly. We are actually living in a very disturbed century with a lot of dangerous global issues. Of course there would be protests against the president of the most powerful "nation". But this must be seen in relation, and after all, the visit was considered as "warm" from both sides.

(BTW: I prefer Frosties to Crunchy-nuts and Smacks)

[foxer 0]

The world is funny,you people take are money in a heart beat.You will ask for our help in a heartbeat.When we get attack,and they  kill 3000 americans,we should sit on our hands and do nothing ? If the world hates,then the world must be bunch of gold diggers.Who cares about protesters ? There's always going be a protest somewhere,can't make everyone happy.Soo if the world hates us oh well,i don't care. ..I guess i just gotta find a way to hate the world. just kidding.

[Akira 0]

How are the steel taxes illegal? If your steel needs to be taxed to stop domestic steel producers from going under thats fine with me....

And you can rest assured we know how much we are "hated". There ain't nothin' going to change that even if we stop doing all the bad things we are alleged to do.

And people keep talking about "mcdonalds" and "fords" or whatever (as in exportation of american culture), yet people keep buying these items. If you don't want them.....DON'T buy them.

[Guest]

Foxer:

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The world is funny,you people take are money in a heart beat.You will ask for our help in a heartbeat.When we get attack,and they  kill 3000 americans,we should sit on our hands and do nothing ? <span id='postcolor'>

No, you should get Osama!... oops that's right you can't find him

Albert:

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">But to say that the Germans didnt welcome Bush or heavily demonstrated against him is silly. We are actually living in a very disturbed century with a lot of dangerous global issues. Of course there would be protests against the president of the most powerful "nation". But this must be seen in relation, and after all, the visit was considered as "warm" from both sides.

<span id='postcolor'>

Albert while we often disagree on issues, I find most of the time that you have interesting things to say. Your contribution to this thread however has been really nothing, or in the best case silly. We are talking about the obvious split between USA and its allies, while you just keeps repeating "Germany loves everybody. Everybody gets a warm welcome in Germany". If you havn't figured it out, this discussion has *nothing* to do with Germany. Just let it go and start thinking instead.

[foxer 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Akira @ May 23 2002,21:38)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">How are the steel taxes illegal? If your steel needs to be taxed to stop domestic steel producers from going under thats fine with me....

And you can rest assured we know how much we are "hated". There ain't nothin' going to change that even if we stop doing all the bad things we are alleged to do.

And people keep talking about "mcdonalds" and "fords" or whatever (as in exportation of american culture), yet people keep buying these items. If you don't want them.....DON'T buy them.<span id='postcolor'>

i would never buy a ford,only a chevy for me,maybe a german made car,or a japanese car.Anyways ford sucks,soo does mcdonalds.You know some towns in america only has one factory and the whole town works there,if the steel company(or a car one,or something else)) goes down,soo will the town.

[Longinius 1]

"The world is funny,you people take are money in a heart beat.You will ask for our help in a heartbeat.When we get attack,and they kill 3000 americans,we should sit on our hands and do nothing ?"

Foxer, please explain how you have managed to NOT get the facts straight even this long a time after 11th of September. 3 000 Americans were NOT killed. 3 000 PEOPLE were, many of whom came from other countries in Europe, Asia and Africa.

And its not about taking money. I have never taken money from America nor from an American and I probably never will.

"If the world hates,then the world must be bunch of gold diggers.Who cares about protesters ? There's always going be a protest somewhere,can't make everyone happy.Soo if the world hates us oh well,i don't care. ..I guess i just gotta find a way to hate the world. just kidding."

You dont find it troublesome when people that usually do not protest rise up and do so? I do.

[foxer 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Longinius @ May 23 2002,21:49)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">"The world is funny,you people take are money in a heart beat.You will ask for our help in a heartbeat.When we get attack,and they  kill 3000 americans,we should sit on our hands and do nothing ?"

Foxer, please explain how you have managed to NOT get the facts straight even this long a time after 11th of September. 3 000 Americans were NOT killed. 3 000 PEOPLE were, many of whom came from other countries in Europe, Asia and Africa.

And its not about taking money. I have never taken money from America nor from an American and I probably never will.

"If the world hates,then the world must be bunch of gold diggers.Who cares about protesters ? There's always going be a protest somewhere,can't make everyone happy.Soo if the world hates us oh well,i don't care.  ..I guess i just gotta find a way to hate the world. just kidding."

You dont find it troublesome when people that usually do not protest rise up and do so? I do.<span id='postcolor'>

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Foxer, please explain how you have managed to NOT get the facts straight even this long a time after 11th of September. 3 000 Americans were NOT killed. 3 000 PEOPLE were, many of whom came from other countries in Europe, Asia and Africa.

<span id='postcolor'>

If your living in america,your a american.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">You dont find it troublesome when people that usually do not protest rise up and do so? I do. <span id='postcolor'>

When you see like 200,000 people protesting,then there is a problem.But under 80,000 is nothing.But who we americans to talk ,we are stupid because only 5 % of us have passports.

[Akira 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (foxer @ May 23 2002,21:43)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">i would never buy a ford,only a chevy for me,maybe a german made car,or a japanese car.Anyways ford sucks,soo does mcdonalds.<span id='postcolor'>

I know. I hate fast food. And American cars tend to suck the bag anyway.

Point is they wouldn't be there if there wasn't a demand for them.

People also forget that American auto makers are mostly owned by foreign companies like Daimler-Benz and Toyota. Go picket them and leave us alone...

[foxer 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Akira @ May 23 2002,21:54)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (foxer @ May 23 2002,21:43)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">i would never buy a ford,only a chevy for me,maybe a german made car,or a japanese car.Anyways ford sucks,soo does mcdonalds.<span id='postcolor'>

I know. I hate fast food. And American cars tend to suck the bag anyway.

Point is they wouldn't be there if there wasn't a demand for them.

People also forget that American auto makers are mostly owned by foreign companies like Daimler-Benz and Toyota. Go picket them and leave us alone...<span id='postcolor'>

chevy(GM) is the only good car company there is ,i believe.But not as great as japanese cars.

[red oct 2]

oooooooo car talk,

what i want for casual driving a spiffy Chevy Avalanche, black, with brush guards on the front and rear tail lights

as for the fancy wheels, a 57 chevy Bel Air, supped up into a big ass dragster, w/ the fat wheels, wheeli bar, nitro kit in the trunk, air scoop on the hood, w/ a HUGE ass custom engine, so FREAKIN BIG! like a 16 cylinder, and a nice glow kit.

[WhoCares 0]

Just LMAO

I'm german and just saw the news in german TV (heute journal)

A popular german journalist in the flight with Bush about his (Bush's) speech in front of the german parlament:

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">He is a good speaker with a written script.<span id='postcolor'>

Furthermore the journalist said that he has his problems with free speeches and discussions. I think that's a good description for many of the important political leaders in many western countries   They are more influenced by lobbies and (questionable?) advisers, focussed on public ratings and such things, instead of personal impressions and emotions...

Another interesting quote:

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I live in a bubble.<span id='postcolor'>

That's definite a sad thing, that he had no contact to the citizens - maybe next time (as he said himself)...

Hopefully in this legislative period -five years Bush are enough    

[Akira 0]

Now why would you tear up that nice Bel Air like that?

[Warin 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">How are the steel taxes illegal? If your steel needs to be taxed to stop domestic steel producers from going under thats fine with me....

<span id='postcolor'>

Ahhh...Akira. The voice of fiscal and economic knowledge speaks!

The US clains that Canadian softwood lumber is subsidized so much that it hurts US timber concerns.  Never mind that timber in the US is already one of the most profitable industries you have. F**king hypocrites!  It's ok to put an oppresive levy on canadian lumber and put thousands of people out of work, but if anyone dares to call you on it you say that they are being 'anti american'.  Yet it's ok for Shrub to throw money at American farmers, and god help anyone that might claim they are unfairly subsidizing! And some americans wonder why the US is hated so much.

Worst Terrorist causing harm to the US: Osama bin Ladin

Worst Terrorist to Canadian Lumber Industry: George W Bush

[Akira 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Warin @ May 23 2002,22:56)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">How are the steel taxes illegal? If your steel needs to be taxed to stop domestic steel producers from going under thats fine with me....

<span id='postcolor'>

Ahhh...Akira. The voice of fiscal and economic knowledge speaks!

The US clains that Canadian softwood lumber is subsidized so much that it hurts US timber concerns.  Never mind that timber in the US is already one of the most profitable industries you have. F**king hypocrites!  It's ok to put an oppresive levy on canadian lumber and put thousands of people out of work, but if anyone dares to call you on it you say that they are being 'anti american'.  Yet it's ok for Shrub to throw money at American farmers, and god help anyone that might claim they are unfairly subsidizing! And some americans wonder why the US is hated so much.

Worst Terrorist causing harm to the US: Osama bin Ladin

Worst Terrorist to Canadian Lumber Industry: George W Bush<span id='postcolor'>

Didn't say I was the voice of anything except myself.

And why should we put our people out of work so yours won't be. It sounds selfish and it is. But thats the way it goes....

And what does subsidized farmers have to do with anything? The are subsidized because of cheaper foreign produce and farmers....many of them are bankrupt and in deep deep debt. You subsidize your timber...we our farmers. The way it goes.

And I dont' think that has much to do in the grand scheme of things to why the US is hated.

[foxer 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Warin @ May 23 2002,22:56)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">How are the steel taxes illegal? If your steel needs to be taxed to stop domestic steel producers from going under thats fine with me....

<span id='postcolor'>

Ahhh...Akira. The voice of fiscal and economic knowledge speaks!

The US clains that Canadian softwood lumber is subsidized so much that it hurts US timber concerns.  Never mind that timber in the US is already one of the most profitable industries you have. F**king hypocrites!  It's ok to put an oppresive levy on canadian lumber and put thousands of people out of work, but if anyone dares to call you on it you say that they are being 'anti american'.  Yet it's ok for Shrub to throw money at American farmers, and god help anyone that might claim they are unfairly subsidizing! And some americans wonder why the US is hated so much.

Worst Terrorist causing harm to the US: Osama bin Ladin

Worst Terrorist to Canadian Lumber Industry: George W Bush<span id='postcolor'>

I don't wanna be a dick or anything,but My god this is nothing new to america.Do you know how many factory jobs left america so they can pay their workers shit else where,like canada(not soo much,but it's alot cheaper  then america),mexico,asian countries(mostly china,and taiwan),some small europe country.DO you know what happen to all those damn jobs ? Yeah they left america to pay people less to make things,soo don't give me this you put  canada workers outta work.This has been happening the last 20 or 30 years in america.Get use to it.

[Warin 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">And why should we put our people out of work so yours won't be. It sounds selfish and it is. But thats the way it goes....

And what does subsidized farmers have to do with anything? The are subsidized because of cheaper foreign produce and farmers....many of them are bankrupt and in deep deep debt. You subsidize your timber...we our farmers. The way it goes.<span id='postcolor'>

As usual, you totally miss the point:

The US Timber industry is profitable. There arent american loggers losing their jobs because of canadian softwood. The tariffs are merely your politicos hoping to get more votes in the next election.

How would you feel if Canada slapped a nice big 29% tariff on Florida Orages or California Grapes because American farmers are unfairly subsidized? You can bet that you'd be screaming bloody murder.

So put up or shut up.

America is disliked because in general, it's ok for the US to do whatever it wants...but when anyone else dares to do the same thing...look out. That's why I used the word hypocrite. Look it up in the dictionary.

[Akira 0]

The politicians may scream bloody murder but I wouldn't. Its your sovereign right to regulate what comes in your own country. No one is stopping you so don't stop us. Like foxer said. Jobs have been leaving the US for a LONG time now.

So please refrain from making sweeping generalizations and calling me a hypocrite.

[Warin 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">So please refrain from making sweeping generalizations and calling me a hypocrite.<span id='postcolor'>

Sweeping generalizations hmm..

Pot...Kettle...Black.

As for the hypocrite comment... it was meant as a generalization for all protectionist americans. But if the shoe fits.

As for 'America is losing jobs to other countries' I think you'd be hard pressed to find a first world industrialized nation that ISNT losing jobs to countires like Mexico, China, and India. Look at Japan. 15 years ago most consumer electronics like camcorders and VCR's were built in Japan. Now..Malaysia, Taiwan, and China. So it isnt an American-centric phenomena.

[Akira 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Warin @ May 23 2002,23:45)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">So please refrain from making sweeping generalizations and calling me a hypocrite.<span id='postcolor'>

Sweeping generalizations hmm..

Pot...Kettle...Black.

As for the hypocrite comment... it was meant as a generalization for all protectionist americans.  But if the shoe fits.

As for 'America is losing jobs to other countries' I think you'd be hard pressed to find a first world industrialized nation that ISNT losing jobs to countires like Mexico, China, and India.  Look at Japan. 15 years ago most consumer electronics like camcorders and VCR's were built in Japan.  Now..Malaysia, Taiwan, and China.  So it isnt an American-centric phenomena.<span id='postcolor'>

Please point out where I made sweeping generalizations.....