pathfinder 0 Posted May 23, 2002 LOL , I love it when people from England call the U.S. bigbrother. I got to ask the them ,how many TV cameras took their picture today when they went to the market. As they got them all over the place to deter crime.....and freedom of privacy Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Longinius 1 Posted May 23, 2002 "LOL , I love it when people from England call the U.S. bigbrother. I got to ask the them ,how many TV cameras took their picture today when they went to the market. As they got them all over the place to deter crime.....and freedom of privacy" Why be afraid of a camera if you have nothing to hide? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted May 23, 2002 </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (USSoldier11B @ May 23 2002,06:02)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Why do you want a big military if you are going to keep it at home?<span id='postcolor'> Like I said, Armies are for fighting wars, not keeping peace. Peace keeping missions are FUBAR. I disagree with U.S. do not, however see our actions against terrorism as wrong. The U.S. was openly and maliciously attacked. Do you not think it warrants some kind of retaliation?<span id='postcolor'> Yes, against those who did it, not against any arbitrary country. It doesnt warrant Afganistan. And it sure as hell doesn't warrant Iraq. The 'harboring of terrorist' argument doesn't work. The only ones you have the right to attack are the terrorists. Now, Bush needed something to bomb to restore national pride and faith, but he couldn't find the ones that attacked you. So he went for Afganistan. Say that you get assulted by a man on the street. He kicks your ass since you have been shagging his girlfriend. Now does that give you the right to beat up the hotel manager at the hotel he is staying? -No, and people would probably say that you had it coming, doing his gf and so on. The US had it also coming beftore WTC. While its execution was spectacular, nobody (except you of course) in the world was surprised that USA got attacked. People in the world that have been bombed and attacked by you have all the reasons in the world to return the favour. But, go and find your Osama.. but that sure as hell doesn't justify invading any country of your choice. I hope EU tells Bush to shove his war plans upp his arse. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
USSoldier11B 0 Posted May 23, 2002 </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Say that you get assulted by a man on the street. He kicks your ass since you have been shagging his girlfriend. Now does that give you the right to beat up the hotel manager at the hotel he is staying? -No, and people would probably say that you had it coming, doing his gf and so on. <span id='postcolor'> Sorry, but this scores a 10.0 on the lame analogy meter. </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Yes, against those who did it, not against any arbitrary country. It doesnt warrant Afganistan. And it sure as hell doesn't warrant Iraq. The 'harboring of terrorist' argument doesn't work. The only ones you have the right to attack are the terrorists. <span id='postcolor'> We did not take any actions in Afghanistan until we had substaniated evidence that showed that terrorist organizations were being harbored there. The parameters that define what warrants military action have been very stict since Vietnam. I do not think that the U.S. military action in Afghanistan is unwarranted nor outrageous. How do you define how a war should be fought? War is not nice nor is it always fair. So, you are saying that we can't apprehend Osama Bin Laden for his crimes against humanity? Just because he has no national identity? How do you suppose we do it then? Ask Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iraq, or whoever to just turn him over? We both know that will never happen. I'm very sorry to see that you sympathize with criminals who would be more than happy to rape your women and pillage your nation because you are not muslim and therefor an "infidel." I'm sure they would love to crash planes into Sweden if it was a more conspicuous target. </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I hope EU tells Bush to shove his war plans upp his arse.<span id='postcolor'> You're welcome for the Marshal Plan and billions of dollars of aid. Now rot in hell. </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">People in the world that have been bombed and attacked by you have all the reasons in the world to return the favour. <span id='postcolor'> Indeed, they have every right to declare war on the U.S. and attack military targets. Not destroy international centers of commerce that contain thousands of innocent civilians. Get real Denoir. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Longinius 1 Posted May 23, 2002 "You're welcome for the Marshal Plan and billions of dollars of aid. Now rot in hell." Yeah, and you are welcome to all the people and money spent by Europe on the fairly young colony in the Americas. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
USSoldier11B 0 Posted May 23, 2002 </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Yeah, and you are welcome to all the people and money spent by Europe on the fairly young colony in the Americas. <span id='postcolor'> Would these be the same ones that taxed us with no parliamentary representation? Commerce is only an indirect benefit. The aid from the Marshal Plan was put directly into rebuilding a war shattered Europe. Lighten up, I said it mainly to silhoutte a dumbass comment. Not that I'm ever guilty of that myself. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted May 23, 2002 </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (USSoldier11B @ May 23 2002,10:37)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">So, you are saying that we can't apprehend Osama Bin Laden for his crimes against humanity?<span id='postcolor'> Sure as hell not. Crimes against humanity requires a hell lot more then killing a couple of thousend civilians. Your bombing of civilians (Vietnam, Iraq, Yugoslavia, Afganistan) should by that logic be considered crimes agains humanity. Lots of war crimes there. The only thing with WTC is that it happend to America, and you have the big guns. </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"> </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">People in the world that have been bombed and attacked by you have all the reasons in the world to return the favour. <span id='postcolor'> Indeed, they have every right to declare war on the U.S. and attack military targets. Not destroy international centers of commerce that contain thousands of innocent civilians. Get real Denoir. <span id='postcolor'> Should I say the bombing of Hanoi? The bombing of Baghdad? The bombing of Belgrade? The bombing of Kabul? The Talibans never did you anything, yet you bombed them, and the Afgani civilians in the name of 'war against terror'. I am not justifying the WTC attack, but I am saying that it doesn't warrent bombing countries that have had nothing to do with it. Edtit. Btw. Sweden never recieved any marshall plan help. So I have no reason to feel any gratitude towards the US. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted May 23, 2002 </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I'm very sorry to see that you sympathize with criminals who would be more than happy to rape your women and pillage your nation because you are not muslim and therefor an "infidel." I'm sure they would love to crash planes into Sweden if it was a more conspicuous target. <span id='postcolor'> This shows how you have no grip of reality. They attacked the USA because of its pro-israeli involvement in the Mid East. LMAO! You really are naÄf. Do you really think that there are 'evil' and 'good' people in the world, and that Osama is 'evil' and that is why he attacked you? I find that hilarious. With all your international involvement, you had it coming. I am just surprised that it didn't happen earlier. Sweden would not be a target since we have done nothing to upset Osama and his merry men. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
USSoldier11B 0 Posted May 23, 2002 </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Edtit. Btw. Sweden never recieved any marshall plan help. So I have no reason to feel any gratitude towards the US. <span id='postcolor'> Maybe so, but Sweden would have surely felt the strain if the Marshall Plan had not been implemented. A lack of commerce maybe? </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">This shows how you have no grip of reality. They attacked the USA because of its pro-israeli involvement in the Mid East. LMAO! You really are naÄf. Do you really think that there are 'evil' and 'good' people in the world, and that Osama is 'evil' and that is why he attacked you? I find that hilarious. With all your international involvement, you had it coming. I am just surprised that it didn't happen earlier. <span id='postcolor'> Really? I know that your are wise at the old age of 24. I would have learned to take you much less seriously if I had known your age sooner. Silly me. Are you sure that maybe it is not you who is jaded? Yes, I do believe that there are "good" and "evil" people in the world. You lack of moral bearing appauls me at times. I think that it has less to do with Israel and more to do with jealousy and un-substaniated hate than anything. It's ok though mate! As people get wiser with age they become more conservative.(just lucky I guess) Â I refuse to let your rhetoric piss me off anymore. So "fire away commander!" Ever stop to think that maybe I am rolling on the ground in hysterical laughter because I perceive you to be as ignorant as you do I? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
InRange 1 Posted May 23, 2002 Hmm...there's a familiar pattern throughout this forum... Somebody posts a newstopic. Denoir: America sucks. USSoldier11B: No, America is cool Denoir: Seriously, America sucks, because [insert arguments here] USSoldier11B: (quotes arguments and gives his own arguments) Denoir: No way (quotes quotes and arguments) USSoldier11B: Yeah way (quotes the quoted quotes) . . . . . . . . . . . . . 40 pages later Denoir: America still sucks USSoldier11B: Hell no, dude Moral of story: topics like these keep going on and on and on because both sides think they're right. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nordin dk 0 Posted May 23, 2002 I see where this is going... Haven't we done this a million times already guys? Americans obviously cannot see the events in any sort of broader context, since the are grieving for the tragic losses of 9/11. That's understandable of course. Sadly, the US will continue to do things the same way, and the consequences will be be worse and worse until something even more unspeakable happens. That's what I mean when I say we're fucked. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LauryThorn 0 Posted May 23, 2002 </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">topics like these keep going on and on and on because both sides think they're right.<span id='postcolor'> No, they go on because neither one of them can make the other to understand their point. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
USSoldier11B 0 Posted May 23, 2002 </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Hmm...there's a familiar pattern throughout this forum... Somebody posts a newstopic. Denoir: America sucks. USSoldier11B: No, America is cool Denoir: Seriously, America sucks, because [insert arguments here] USSoldier11B: (quotes arguments and gives his own arguments) Denoir: No way (quotes quotes and arguments) USSoldier11B: Yeah way (quotes the quoted quotes) . . . . . . . . . . . . . 40 pages later Denoir: America still sucks USSoldier11B: Hell no, dude Moral of story: topics like these keep going on and on and on because both sides think they're right.<span id='postcolor'> Gwahahahahahahaha! Glad someone has a sense of humor. Really guys! I'm trying to be diplomatic. I'm not as bad as I used to be, he would get me into a cussing rage. Although arguing with Denoir is loads of fun for me now. I think it is safe to say that we both make valid points, as well as some outrageously biased ones. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted May 23, 2002 </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (USSoldier11B @ May 23 2002,11:10)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Really? I know that your are wise at the old age of 24. I would have learned to take you much less seriously if I had known your age sooner.<span id='postcolor'> What's age got to do with it? Are you saying that your arguments are less valid then mine because you are 21 and I am 24? What counts for is life experience and education. Btw. How old did you think I was? </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Yes, I do believe that there are "good" and "evil" people in the world. You lack of moral bearing appauls me at times.<span id='postcolor'> It is not a lack of moral. It is called a grip of reality. The world isn't black and white. </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"> I think that it has less to do with Israel and more to do with jealousy and un-substaniated hate than anything.<span id='postcolor'> I think that this your major flaw. You think that everybody wants Ford cars and Big Macs? No! Let me repeat that "NO!". Osama doesn't like the US since it is interfering with his sphere of interest. You are as usual force fucking all the countries that you can with your culture and ideals. Some countries (like the European ones) bend over and ask for a second turn. Some people, organizations and countries don't. Osama and his merry men belong  to that category. They are no jealous of the US. As a matter of fact they hate everything that you stand for. Now, they would have leaved you alone if you hadn't insisted on both your cultural raping and your foregin policy. </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">because I perceive you to be as ignorant as you do I?<span id='postcolor'> "as you do me." would be correct English. Sorry, couldn't resist, but you were talking about ignorance. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted May 23, 2002 </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (USSoldier11B @ May 23 2002,11:24)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Although arguing with Denoir is loads of fun for me now. I think it is safe to say that we both make valid points, as well as some outrageously biased ones.<span id='postcolor'> I agree. It's all good fun, and it is always interesting to see the other sides argument. We most likely won't convince each other, but as I said, it is interesting Besides, I have to give him a chance to regain some dignity after me whipping his ass last round </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Moral of story: topics like these keep going on and on and on because both sides think they're right.<span id='postcolor'> No, no! USSoldier thinks he is right. I know I am right </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Hmm...there's a familiar pattern throughout this forum... Somebody posts a newstopic. Denoir: America sucks. <span id='postcolor'> It's not my fault this time. I posted the main news article as an attempt to get a discussion of why there is a split between USA and Europe today. Not who is wrong or right. But these threads have a life of their own and seldom end up in the right direction Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
USSoldier11B 0 Posted May 23, 2002 </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">No, no! USSoldier thinks he is right. I know I am right <span id='postcolor'> Can you say bait? </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">"as you do me." would be correct English. Sorry, couldn't resist, but you were talking about ignorance.<span id='postcolor'> You do realize it is 40 a.m. here and I'm somewhat tired. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pathfinder 0 Posted May 23, 2002 About osama -Well when you hide behind the Koran ,and at the same time toss it out the window people say {this guy is pure evil}......even his fellow Muslims. Just wondering Denoir , did uncle sam molest you at some time in your life? I mean it seems your hatred towards the US borders the fanatical sometimes? If the U.S. dried up tomorrow and blew away ,do you think the world would be better off? We have a PRES..(bush) that didn't want to mess with much outside of the country at the start of his term, but 9/11 kind of changed that. And thats a big reason we are sticking our dicks in some places where we're not wanted. And most if not all of the scenarios you mention were tied to US conflicts. Not random US bombers going about the world dropping their loads. They were during war and sometimes when your enemy lies down with civis ,civis get killed. And Im sure your angry at russia for their use of force in chechneya,aren't you? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted May 23, 2002 </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (pathfinder @ May 23 2002,12:41)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">About osama -Well when you hide behind the Koran ,and at the same time toss it out the window people say {this guy is pure evil}......even his fellow Muslims.<span id='postcolor'> The bible also says thou shalt not kill, right? </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Just wondering Denoir , did uncle sam molest you at some time in your life? I mean it seems your hatred towards the US borders the fanatical sometimes? If the U.S. dried up tomorrow and blew away ,do you think the world would be better off? <span id='postcolor'> As you can see in several of these discussions, I am voicing a general European view. It is not me specifically. But if you want an example, I can say that my feelings towards US foregin policy didn't improve after I saw what they did in Kosovo. </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">We have a PRES..(bush) that didn't want to mess with much outside of the country at the start of his term, but 9/11 kind of changed that. And thats a big reason we are sticking our dicks in some places where we're not wanted.<span id='postcolor'> Yes we agree on that. The question is only who gives you the right to do that. What is a reasonable reaction to the WTC attacks? Those are the points we don't agree on. </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">And most if not all of the scenarios you mention were tied to US conflicts. Not random US bombers going about the world dropping their loads. They were during war and sometimes when your enemy lies down with civis ,civis get killed.<span id='postcolor'> That makes no difference. Do you think that the person that gets killed cares if he is the victim of a terror attack or a casulty of war? </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">And Im sure your angry at russia for their use of force in chechneya,aren't you?<span id='postcolor'> Well, lets say that I disagree with the use of force in chechneya. They want to be independent, so let them. In the same way I disagree Israels use of force in Palestina. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LauryThorn 0 Posted May 23, 2002 </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"> Do you think that the person that gets killed cares if he is the victim of a terror attack or a casulty of war?<span id='postcolor'> What is the difference between terror attack(s) and war? US declared war on those people who crashed the planes at the WTC towers in NY. War is awful: You can't declare war to someone and expect that they sit down and wait to get killed. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted May 23, 2002 </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (LauryThorn @ May 23 2002,13:15)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">US declared war on those people who crashed the planes at the WTC towers in NY.<span id='postcolor'> My point and main criticism was that the US declared war on people that didn't have anything to do with the WTC attack. The 9/11 attacks were comitted by a few extremists. That doesn't give you the right to declare war on the world. Timothy McVeigh (the oklahoma bomber) lived in Arizona before the bombing. Does that mean that we should bomb the hell out of Arizona for harboring terrorists? He was a former US Army soldier. Does that mean that the US Army trains terrorists? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GrimCalavera 0 Posted May 23, 2002 Mr. Bush is welcome to Europe if you ask me. I can sleep safely knowing there's atleast one country in the world that has got balls to go trough wars and do something to stop evil guys. I hate these European socialist-commies cause they like to speak loud but do nothing. Who can respect that? Noone. I'm just fed of all this bullshit what's going on in europe. We're like little babies crying all over... Ahhh I feel better now Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Akira 0 Posted May 23, 2002 </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Ex-RoNiN @ May 23 2002,01:49)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Him getting nukes I am not worried about. Those Scuds don't reach very far, and besides, he doesn't have the cash to buy them anyway. He can't even pay his soldiers ffs. I reckon the Iraqis are going to oust them in about 5 years if nothing happens from outside, a military dictatorship that can't pay its soldiers will never last long.<span id='postcolor'> So basically if they don't reach you then what do you care? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Akira 0 Posted May 23, 2002 </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ May 23 2002,02:49)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (USSoldier11B @ May 23 2002,02:44)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Unfortunately, the price of being an American is being scrutinized by everybody and compared to everything. <span id='postcolor'> Well, as Major Fubar wisely earlier put it: you wouldn't be criticized if you stopped sticking your political penis into countries all over the world where it doesn't belong. It is very interesting however that there is so much scepticism towards US policty in Europe. Is it just Bush or have we finally reached a point where the cultural differences are greater then our common interests?<span id='postcolor'> So I suppose the European way of inaction is the way to go...much like World War 2. Appeasment and inaction worked well then too. I suppose it will take a nuke lobbed at Europe before the danger is realized, and action taken. I please spare me the standard "brainwashed American" response, its tiresome. Your comments and arguements are just as much a by-product of conditioning and propoganda as mine are. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Albert Schweitzer 10 Posted May 23, 2002 I dont like this thread. I havent read the 5 pages (but I will) I just feel pressured that it is incredible inpolite BULLSHIT to post this. Bush was indeed very welcome and his speech was very warmhearted and apreciated as this. The demonstrations are a piece of democracy. it would be ridiculous not to have at least 1000 demonstrators in a nation of 82 million. And also do we have a great percentage of arabs in germany who of course wish to express their arab attitude towards the US and their Middle East policy. SO PLEASE DONT SPREAD THIS BULLSHIT, and please, dear americans dont get the wrong impression. I am german and I claim to know the general attitude towards Bush. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted May 23, 2002 </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Akira @ May 23 2002,15:40)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ May 23 2002,02:49)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (USSoldier11B @ May 23 2002,02:44)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Unfortunately, the price of being an American is being scrutinized by everybody and compared to everything. <span id='postcolor'> Well, as Major Fubar wisely earlier put it: you wouldn't be criticized if you stopped sticking your political penis into countries all over the world where it doesn't belong. It is very interesting however that there is so much scepticism towards US policty in Europe. Is it just Bush or have we finally reached a point where the cultural differences are greater then our common interests?<span id='postcolor'> So I suppose the European way of inaction is the way to go...much like World War 2. Appeasment and inaction worked well then too.<span id='postcolor'> Oh, really? In WW2 you can really talk about American inaction. You came in last in the war only when your own interests were threatened. Read a history book, is my suggestion to you. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites