Bush unpopular in berlin

[Guest]

Bush is coming to Europe, but unlike Clinton it looks like he won't get a warm welcome.

CNN Article

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">BERLIN, Germany -- German police have turned the centre of Berlin into a virtual fortress ahead of the arrival of U.S. President George W. Bush, with the largest security force in post-war history sealing off the government quarter.

Some 10,000 police officers completely cordoned off a 14-block area around the Brandenburg Gate for the American leader, who arrives in Berlin at around 8:30 p.m. local time (1930 GMT) for the start of a six-day tour of Europe.

American presidents are often greeted with open arms in the city, where memories linger of the 1948-1949 airlift that kept West Berlin free and President John F. Kennedy's famous "Ich bin ein Berliner" speech after the Berlin Wall was built.

But Bush, the seventh U.S. president to visit Berlin since World War II, will find no such relief when he arrives for a 20-hour stay that starts a six-day tour of Europe.

Tens of thousands of demonstrators who protested on the eve of his visit over a possible U.S. attack on Iraq and Washington's policies on trade, the environment and the Middle East are set to take to the streets again for his arrival.

.................

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[Akira 0]

Clinton was a lame skirt chaser....

Protest an attack on Iraq....theres a difference between protesting "war" and apathy/pacifist attitude towards a tyrant and known terror supporter. Not to mention regional de-stabilizer.

Saddam is a punk ass bitch and should be taken out. Germany doesn't wanna help? Fine with me........

*starts to climb into asbestos suit*

[Pete 1]

Not to mention regional de-stabilizer.

should be easy task for the "global de-stabilizer" (USA).

now all we need is a "galactical de-stabilizer" to put the "global de-stabilizer" into its place...we seen them in the movies, its not a coinsidence they (aliens, ufos) always attack USA you know...

mmmm...someone is bound to say that we need to stop the "regional de-stabilizer" from attacking "local de-stabilizers" or the lowest of the low...the drunks and drugaddicts, the "nothing de-stabilizers"

ok...im tired but if you look hard you can see a flame vs usa, buried under some bs....

[Akira 0]

Yeah well the US always kicks the aliens asses too....hehehe

How is the US the "global de-stabilizer"....need some examples to go on and to refute/debate or what have you...

And fear not....the flame was received through the sleep-muddled confusion....

And the destinction between "against war" and "apathy-inaction" stands.

[Assault (CAN) 1]

All Saddam needs is weapons grade uranium. He has bomb casings, detonators, and the know how to put a bomb together. He still has thousands of litres of chemical weapons and the U.N. beleives that he is still manufacturing the stuff. They think that he can build an atomic bomb within the next 6 years.

We have seen in the past, both in Israel and in Northern Iraq that Saddam is not afraid to use his weapons when he has them. He still has a small fleet of scud missiles and some missiles (with a range of about 100 miles) that Iraq has built recently.

The sooner he and his Baath (?) party are out of power, the better.

Tyler

[Guest]

Iraq is nothing. Saddam is really nothing. If you want to go after the real sponsor of terrorism you go after Iran.

Ahh.. but I forgot. Yes, Iran most likely has nuclear capabilities, so it is to dangerous to touch them. Bugger. Oh, well, Iraq is there in the neighbourhood so I guess that is close enough. Let's bomb them instead.

Anyway this remove Saddam thing is entirely an American initative that nobody else seems to agree with. Even Blair, US' closest ally is sceptical.

I am telling you, Bush is on a good way of destroying all good relationships with the US' European allies.

[Ex-RoNiN 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ May 23 2002,00:35)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I am telling you, Bush is on a good way of destroying all good relationships with the US' European allies.<span id='postcolor'>

Yupp, but thats good, it will increase the general feeling of needing a European Superstate, which I personally can't wait to see. About time that Big Brother stops looking our shoulders.

As for Iraq, if Saddam was the same ruler, ruling by the same methods and conducting war by the same methods somewhere in Africa (away from diamods, Uranium, Oil), then nobody would even care.

[Assault (CAN) 1]

I would rather risk it and take out Saddam then regret not doing it later. Just before September 11th, how many of you thought that a bunch of guys with box-cutters would have been a threat?

I suppose it's human nature not to act until something terrible happens first.

Tyler

[Guest]

If US wants to take out Saddam, that's fine with me. One less dictator in the world. The downside is of course that the Iraqi people will have to suffer through the bombing.

To claim that Saddam is a significant player in the world, is however ludicrous. He is just another two bit no good asshole dictator, one of dozens in the world. He poses no threat to anybody but his people that he opresses. He doesn't have the will or means to do anybody else any harm. His invasion of Kuwait had for him the unfortunate consequence of displeasing western countries (because of oil of course).

He was portrayed as the ultimate bad guy by standard propaganda that goes together with any war. That reputation stuck with him and dumber people still think of him as the greatest evil on earth (well, second greatest, after Osama of course), without really knowing why they think that way.

That brings us to another question. What the fuck is wrong with the US intelligence apparatus today? Are they all just a bunch of brainless yes sayers? Why do they think that the Bush administration are the only ones that finds it necessary to remove Saddam? Why doesn't the rest of NATO agree?

Is this a question of brainlessly following the political directions without any reality checks? Or is it some form of post 9/11 hysteria?

[Pukko 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Akira @ May 22 2002,23:15)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">And the destinction between "against war" and "apathy-inaction" stands.<span id='postcolor'>

LOL. Obviously a Israeli ambassadeur in Europe 'accused' Euoropeans for being 'pacifists' some time ago. Now thats a real insult - he should be given a death penalty for that!

Maybe it got something to do with that all European nations have proven themselves to be military powerful and successful a long or very long time ago. We got nothing left to prove; and since we during time figured out that war is a no good way to solve conflicts (sadly that conflict is still about the definition of war) we see about no reason for it.

What you call "apathy-inaction" I would call:

Sitting on the ass and try to improve relationship with all other nations and peoples. That has some future in it. War do NOT improve relationships, merely lets the warish nation join all others in the dark history of mankind

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Antje Vollmer, a parliamentary leader for the Greens party, junior partner to Schroeder's SPD, said Bush was using "an almost missionary approach against evil" which was causing tension and instability worldwide. <span id='postcolor'>

Dont know if Pete were inspired by this statement that is to be found at the bottom of the CNN article, but I cant do anything but agree. US global policies are not very creative, if you ay so......

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">

Yupp, but thats good, it will increase the general feeling of needing a European Superstate, which I personally can't wait to see. About time that Big Brother stops looking our shoulders.<span id='postcolor'>

That is something I long for too. Maybe not exactly a 'European Superstate', but well a strong and influental Europe, that continues along the 'pacifist' road; and do everything to help and support other nations, even if it do not benefit Europe in the short run - thats a road to a positive globalisation

[Assault (CAN) 1]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">To claim that Saddam is a significant player in the world, is however ludicrous. He is just another two bit no good asshole dictator, one of dozens in the world. He poses no threat to anybody but his people that he opresses.<span id='postcolor'>

You are right.

He is as corrupt as the next guy, he takes money that is meant for his people's health and education and uses it to keep himself in power, builds monuments to himself, and mosques as well. That isn't a real reason to go and bomb the f*ck out of Iraq, but as soon as he gets his hands on some nukes and a way to deliver them, it makes him a world power. Like it or not.

Tyler

[Ex-RoNiN 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Assault (CAN) @ May 23 2002,01:43)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">To claim that Saddam is a significant player in the world, is however ludicrous. He is just another two bit no good asshole dictator, one of dozens in the world. He poses no threat to anybody but his people that he opresses.<span id='postcolor'>

You are right.

He is as corrupt as the next guy, he takes money that is meant for his people's health and education and uses it to keep himself in power, builds monuments to himself, and mosques as well. That isn't a real reason to go and bomb the f*ck out of Iraq, but as soon as he gets his hands on some nukes and a way to deliver them, it makes him a world power. Like it or not.

Tyler<span id='postcolor'>

Him being corrupt, bombing his own people etc. etc., basically all the things you have written, was one of the major reasons (or excuses rather) to go off into the world and rape democracy and freedom and all those ideals in your constitution as best as they could. Sure, the evil commies had to be defeated, so it is ok .

Ok, not really your constitution, the American rather.

Him getting nukes I am not worried about. Those Scuds don't reach very far, and besides, he doesn't have the cash to buy them anyway. He can't even pay his soldiers ffs. I reckon the Iraqis are going to oust them in about 5 years if nothing happens from outside, a military dictatorship that can't pay its soldiers will never last long.

/rant mode

[USSoldier11B 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Is this a question of brainlessly following the political directions without any reality checks? Or is it some form of post 9/11 hysteria?<span id='postcolor'>

Oh and the Germans have never been guilty of this?

[Assault (CAN) 1]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Those Scuds don't reach very far,<span id='postcolor'>

So as long as your not threatened, it doesn't matter?

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (USSoldier11B @ May 23 2002,02:11)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Is this a question of brainlessly following the political directions without any reality checks? Or is it some form of post 9/11 hysteria?<span id='postcolor'>

Oh and the Germans have never been guilty of this? <span id='postcolor'>

Touché

But do you really want to be compared to nazi Germany?

[IsthatyouJohnWayne 0]

Oh no not the Frikking US-Europe rift again

enough about that already

i must have read about 50 news articles about it in the past 6 months

Well being British i suppose i should take the traditional approach and moderately agree and disagree with both sides

though i really cant be buggered to explain it,

well hey its 1:38 in the morning for billgates sake!

so just take my word for it,- the US is partly right and Europe is partly right.

The solution is for both power blocs to maintain a dialogue +emphasise each others strengths ,work together and compliment each other in such endevours as:

-Conflict resolution

-Global aid to LEDCs

-World food programs

-Minimising threat from rogue states

-Propagating Liberal democracy and accompanying values

-Preventing/containing spread of contagious diseases

-Preventing global economic meltdown

etc etc

all that blabbering from US/EU politicians/media about each other  means almost nothing in the long run

different countries in EU moderate each other

+basic values of decency

different interest groups +constitution moderates US

+basic values of decency

There EU/USproblem solved

- case closed

Now onto China......

[USSoldier11B 0]

Unfortunately, the price of being an American is being scrutinized by everybody and compared to everything.

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (USSoldier11B @ May 23 2002,02:44)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Unfortunately, the price of being an American is being scrutinized by everybody and compared to everything. <span id='postcolor'>

Well, as Major Fubar wisely earlier put it: you wouldn't be criticized if you stopped sticking your political penis into countries all over the world where it doesn't belong.

It is very interesting however that there is so much scepticism towards US policty in Europe.

Is it just Bush or have we finally reached a point where the cultural differences are greater then our common interests?

[USSoldier11B 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Well, as Major Fubar wisely earlier put it: you wouldn't be criticized if you stopped sticking your political penis into countries all over the world where it doesn't belong.

<span id='postcolor'>

Not my fault?

Us conservatives over here just wanna worry about ourselves. We believe in big military, but we like to keep the stateside rather than having them deployed on "peace keeping missions." Armies are for wars not for those. I believe that we are justified to help if a nation asks for the help. (often the case) Didn't Clinton prove that liberals want to stick thier dicks in everyone?

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (USSoldier11B @ May 23 2002,03:02)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Well, as Major Fubar wisely earlier put it: you wouldn't be criticized if you stopped sticking your political penis into countries all over the world where it doesn't belong.

<span id='postcolor'>

Not my fault?

Us conservatives over here just wanna worry about ourselves. We believe in big military, but we like to keep the stateside rather than having them deployed on "peace keeping missions." Armies are for wars not for those. I believe that we are justified to help if a nation asks for the help. (often the case) Didn't Clinton prove that liberals want to stick thier dicks in everyone? <span id='postcolor'>

Why do you want a big military if you are going to keep it at home? It doesn't make much sense. It's not like there is a risk of you getting invaded. Watch out for those shifty looking Canadians though

I forgot to say in my last post that our European polititians are unfortunately completly out of touch with popular opinions because they are busy kissing the US ass.

Take Berlin for example. Bush was met by over a hundred thousand (anti-Bush) demonstrators. What does chancellor Schröder say? That the demonstrators should rather think about how it is thanks to the US that they even have the right to demonstrate. Talk about being out of touch with reallity.

[nordin dk 0]

Basically: We're Fucked.

The world seems worse off than ever.

I think Europe is only pointing the proverbial finger at the US's proverbial penis, because we ourselves feel a tingle in our proverbial underpants.

Let me refrain from straining this metafor any further, but say this. Europe is going the way of the US, we have been for the most of the century. It's easy to take offence by the actions of the US, because we see the tendencies in our own backyard I think.

This is why the debates get so heated and so frequent, because Europe has to decide it we wanna go down that road or not. I say not, and I'll do what I can to prevent it.

[Assault (CAN) 1]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Europe is going the way of the US, we have been for the most of the century.<span id='postcolor'>

How so? I'm sure most people in the U.S. view Europe as nothing but a contenent full of America hating, pinko commies. Politically wise, EU and U.S. politicians are pretty much on the opposite side of each other. Just compare health care and gun control and other things between the U.S. and the EU.

It's funny when you get into the point of view of other nations peoples, we all think that some country is out to destroy us or take over our economy and culture.

In Canada, we fear the U.S., same goes for Europe.

In the U.S., they fear everyone else, even the U.N.  

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Watch out for those shifty looking Canadians though

<span id='postcolor'>

We have secretly been planning an invasion since our last successful raid in Washington, when we sacked it and burned down the Whitehouse in 1815. Our day will soon come

What was that OFP quote? "The best way of preserving peace is to be prepared for war" - George Washington.

Tyler

[nordin dk 0]

It just strikes me that the reason for the strong reactions from Europe, is because we are at a sort of crossroads. We need to be strong and agressive in our statements, because we're trying to figure out ourselves, what the hell we want.

[Guest]

[USSoldier11B 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Why do you want a big military if you are going to keep it at home?<span id='postcolor'>

Like I said, Armies are for fighting wars, not keeping peace. Peace keeping missions are FUBAR. I disagree with U.S. presence in Kosovo (athough it is offically a NATO operation)and also in Somlia during Operation Gothic Serpeant. I do not, however see our actions against terrorism as wrong. The U.S. was openly and maliciously attacked. Do you not think it warrants some kind of retaliation? I would think Germans would be more supportive of Bush's actions since historically Germany has had alot of terrorist activity.