Automatic Mod Downloading

[batto 17]

What is the right solution then according to you one man clan?

Well, when average Joe will buy the game he wil see in-game browser and he will not be able to join some servers. So in-game browser should be able to download mods & manage mods. Some advanced mod management could be done with other tool that gets installed with game (and sure it could be "SU the official ARMA 3 mod management tool"). SU maintained only by community (I mean Sickboy :P) may be great, but average Joe is dumb and too lazy to find it.

EDIT: I also think it's a little bit slow and I'm on Core i5 2500k :P

Edited April 24, 2012 by batto

[sickboy 13]

Well, when average Joe will buy the game he wil see in-game browser and he will not be able to join some servers. So in-game browser should be able to download mods & manage mods. Some advanced mod management could be done with offline tool that gets installed with game. Six Updater may be great, but average Joe is dumb and too lazy to find it.

IMO then it's just a matter of getting the user informed about SU, like by having SU delivered with the game ;-)

Of course a deeper integration with the game would be beneficial, it could certainly be useful to have the game command SU, and so forth, but limitations like needing to restart the game to make mods take effect, make it harder, but not unachievable.

[Gunter Severloh 3948]

if You could play any mod just by clicking "Join"

SU basically has this covered as far as I understand.

But you got to understand that BIS didn't make the mods, the mods are external copies (patches of changes) to the already existing game.

Just joining a server running a mission that requires mods is an old argument alot of us heard before.

Servers are ran by individuals or by hosts rented by individuals, in other words, you may be joining a game by bIS but on a server not owned by bis, so its out of their hands.

The server owner has to set something up in order for you to just join and then like when you download a mission you could get all the files too but...

again this argument has been discussed too, and it wont work.

Why? Because unless the mod is like 5mb and under preferably 1 mb which is really not big at all for a mod, more like a tweak, so its not worth the time for a mission

you would be sitting there longer than it would take you to get off your A** go start up SU, or install it manually and have it on your computer and ready to play,

it would take god awful forever to download a whole mod.

Lets say you wanted to join a mission running I44, to download I44 and the mission your looking at 3.2 gigs of files that needed to be downloaded!!

depending on your internet speed, and the speed of the downloader ftp it could range from 30min, to 5hours or more!

This wouldnt work.

Now on another discussion many times which btw has been mentioned is if BIS had multiple official servers, and were

setup so that if it were running a mission that needed mods then the server would act like SU, but the files were setup to mimmick

a clients game where you already see the units or whatever in the mission, somehow it would be like a signal to like a cache,

that could identify the files and you could automatically get in the game without having to download anything. Just something off the top of my head there lol.

Realistically with Arma3 on the way that wont happen, they had all of OFP years (6 years) do do something, Arma1, Arma2, and now CO, with all its DLCs, its not happening.

So the game is setup where you the client basically will need a copy of the mod, get the mod anywhere SU, Armaholic, dont matter.

this is how the game is currently setup. The game could be setup like a MMO, where you launch the game from a launcher of sort and the game would be updated with units,

or whatever a specific mission your trying play needs.

I think as has been said somehow have the option in the game already to download and install the mod required, basically a buitl in version of SU.

If i remember correctly there was a program for OFP that was like a detector,a nd it located, installed addons and mods needed accordingly, and

you really didn have to do a thing. But back in those days it was all sp and editor for me.

Current mod installation is just copying, unpacking, ... job for computer, not user.

Yes that is what SU does, except if im not mistake there nothing to unpack, its download, install, play. Correct Sickboy?

[batto 17]

@Günter Severloh: No offense, but You didn't write _single_ valid argument except long non-sense ending in "It has been already discussed, it'll not work, end of story". Counter-Strike has tons of mods and I can play them just by joining the server. Game will get all dependencies. And it can take even hour on slow connection and I don't care, I can mimize game or cancel it. And I think I've never played on server owned by Valve.

it would take god awful forever to download a whole mod.

How long would it take in Firefox or SU?

Just joining a server running a mission that requires mods is an old argument alot of us heard before.

Servers are ran by individuals or by hosts rented by individuals, in other words, you may be joining a game by bIS but on a server not owned by bis, so its out of their hands.

The server owner has to set something up in order for you to just join and then like when you download a mission you could get all the files too but...

again this argument has been discussed too, and it wont work.

FPDR

So the game is setup where you the client basically will need a copy of the mod, get the mod anywhere SU, Armaholic, dont matter.

this is how the game is currently setup. The game could be setup like a MMO, where you launch the game from a launcher of sort and the game would be updated with units,

or whatever a specific mission your trying play needs.

Paying customer wants to join a game from in-game browser. Technology in 2012 allow this. End of story.

Edited April 24, 2012 by batto

[Gunter Severloh 3948]

No offense, but You didn't write _single_ valid argument except long non-sense ending in "It has been already discussed, it'll not work, end of story".

Well if you read between the lines, it has been discussed, theres many threads on this forum where folks have asked the same stuff as you,

and the arguments rather discussion has already been said.

Counter-Strike has tons of mods and I can play them just by joining the server. Game will get all dependencies.

And? So how does counterstrike have it setup where you can do that?

Try to make statements that work with our discussion here, you make good points but you leave it hanging.

This is the way BIS games are right now, its either SU updater or a program like it, or a manual install.

How long would it take in Firefox or SU?

As said depends on your internet speed, it will vary from person to person.

Paying customer wants to join a game from in-game browser. Technology in 2012 allow this. End of story.

Thats what you want, its seems like an ideal thing if those with the same thing in mind, but the game is what it is, Im personally fine the way the game is,

and looking forward to Arma3 for whatever it offers good or bad, i already went through thick and thin since OFP like the rest of the folks that been in the same place,

so I got a good general Idea of whats to come with the new game, and from what im seeing the game is only gets better.

[gossamersolid 155]

And? So how does counterstrike have it setup where you can do that?

The server admin sets a URL Redirect for downloads that are BZip compressed (usually stored on a remote server). Then one server join, it checks if you have the files. If you don't, it begins to download them. Then once they are done downloading, you get to join the server.

This could be done in ArmA 3, but on server join, it'll download the compressed PBOs/Signatures and then in order to apply them, the game will restart and automatically attempt to re-join the server after boot. It won't be as "fluid" as the source engine handles it, but it still would work MUCH better than what we currently have ingame.

[rory_pamphilon 16]

The server admin sets a URL Redirect for downloads that are BZip compressed (usually stored on a remote server). Then one server join, it checks if you have the files. If you don't, it begins to download them. Then once they are done downloading, you get to join the server.

This could be done in ArmA 3, but on server join, it'll download the compressed PBOs/Signatures and then in order to apply them, the game will restart and automatically attempt to re-join the server after boot. It won't be as "fluid" as the source engine handles it, but it still would work MUCH better than what we currently have ingame.

This in IMO is the best most convenient way for it to happen. I understand Arma games need a restart, thats not the problem. It just needs to be a seemless from clicking join to downloading to restarting to rejoining, if its not seemless you will loose half the noobs along the way which equals half the players which means empty servers again. Ignore the time it takes to download, thats the users perogative if they want to sit there and wait but as mentioned you can tab out or cancel. At the moment all players can download a 7-8mb mission file from the game server without too many problems, if that was switched to a file server there would be no stress on game server what so ever. I would personally click join on an I44 server and leave it downloading all day/night to get in because it would be amazing and so worth while to finally get into a server running mods full of people! Now thats at the extreme end but imagine a warfare game where somebody had decided to add in just a few vehicles, a frigate, a eurofighter typhoon and a su35 to spice it up a bit. your probably talking 40-50mb which would take most people a few minutes at most and yet the game would change so much with these new vehicles.

i say put this in place now if you can because in the future internet speeds will only increase making the process faster and slicker but it needs to be incorporated from the beggining not in a patch a year down the line because, by then, you will have lost 90% of the players and they will never get to see the amazing mods out there!

[sickboy 13]

EDIT: I also think it's a little bit slow and I'm on Core i5 2500k :P

Slow how? Several things are configurable, while Download speed will depend on how full the mirrors are, if they are prioritzed by ping, and certain antivirus will slow it down to a crawl.

If you let me know some details; http://www.six-updater.net/p/support.html we might be able to resolve.

[Guest]

Can you please leave any SU related discussion in the SU thread? I fail to see why this topic needs to be used as well to discuss SU issues!

[sickboy 13]

Can you please leave any SU related discussion in the SU thread? I fail to see why this topic needs to be used as well to discuss SU issues!

Hence im asking him for more details in my support box and not go further off topic here.

[[aps]gnat 28]

The server admin sets a URL Redirect for downloads that are BZip compressed (usually stored on a remote server). Then one server join, it checks if you have the files. If you don't, it begins to download them. Then once they are done downloading, you get to join the server.

This could be done in ArmA 3, but on server join, it'll download the compressed PBOs/Signatures and then in order to apply them, the game will restart and automatically attempt to re-join the server after boot. It won't be as "fluid" as the source engine handles it, but it still would work MUCH better than what we currently have ingame.

Agree, this seems simply enough and isn't too tough on players. I for one dont nessisarily want to see it too dumbed down, to like console level.

Other reasons for not dumbing it down too much includes the HUGE varitety of addons that typically develope and the dozen variations that can happen on install.

Unless there was some sort of common Folder for ALL non-BIS addons, where you/the engine could switch them On and Off to be included on loading .....

..... we'll have to maintain Mod Folders and we don't want Server X loading his 1GB of addons into folder @StevesServer and then another server wanting you to load the same 1GB of addons into @SamServer !

[hyzoran 17]

Maybe they could make it like the Unreal engine where everytime a package is saved, it generates a 128 digit hex code thats guaranteed to be unique, and saves it into the package, and when this package is downloaded from the server, it is placed in the client's cache folder, where the file package is given the name of the unique key, so that if different server uses multiple versions of the same file, the player will not get a mismatch and can join both servers without any trouble at all.

As mods for Arma would be quite large, it should be optional for a server to allow this or not, and have a setting for the server to limit the bandwidth allocated to downloaders to a point that it will not affect players. Or maybe use redirect servers, so that the playing server and the file server are independent of each other so that downloads cannot affect the playing server, and implement a torrent system maybe too, so that interrupted downloads can be continued, and so that redirect servers are not under so much stress.

[whiskeytango 11]

The server admin sets a URL Redirect for downloads that are BZip compressed (usually stored on a remote server). Then one server join, it checks if you have the files. If you don't, it begins to download them. Then once they are done downloading, you get to join the server.

This could be done in ArmA 3, but on server join, it'll download the compressed PBOs/Signatures and then in order to apply them, the game will restart and automatically attempt to re-join the server after boot. It won't be as "fluid" as the source engine handles it, but it still would work MUCH better than what we currently have ingame.

I play on our clan tactical mission server and we have our own updater that keeps us in sync with what's on our servers. I'd definitely have to opt out of an automatic update system in case I joined some public server and it started overwriting gigs of data I need.

[rory_pamphilon 16]

I play on our clan tactical mission server and we have our own updater that keeps us in sync with what's on our servers. I'd definitely have to opt out of an automatic update system in case I joined some public server and it started overwriting gigs of data I need.

If Arma 3 came with a fully functioning mod updater/syncer why would you want to use a third party solution?

I agree that arma mods are generally quite large but tb drives are cheap and there is no reason the mod downloaded couldn't also function as a mod manager where u can delete installed mods. There should be no reason u need to open up a file explorer, I envision all this being done by arma in an ideal future scenario.

[batto 17]

I play on our clan tactical mission server and we have our own updater that keeps us in sync with what's on our servers. I'd definitely have to opt out of an automatic update system in case I joined some public server and it started overwriting gigs of data I need.

Cancel download button? ;-) I understand, it's already too late. Well, then your tool should use different data location.

[whiskeytango 11]

If Arma 3 came with a fully functioning mod updater/syncer why would you want to use a third party solution?

I agree that arma mods are generally quite large but tb drives are cheap and there is no reason the mod downloaded couldn't also function as a mod manager where u can delete installed mods. There should be no reason u need to open up a file explorer, I envision all this being done by arma in an ideal future scenario.

We use our own for control over when we roll out updates. The mods are so large that you can't rock up and realise that a new release has just been pushed out. I think that if you connected to a server it would be good if it prompted you to download and install the necessary mods and then restart. It's a shame when people connect to our public servers and then disconnect because they don't have the mod running. I guess that's why we have the public vanilla server.

Personally I use a launcher so I never need to worry with command lines.

[zoog 18]

Yes indeed, beauty of my mods is it works on a server without having to actually be on it.

Its very understandable, if you come to a new game, and would like to add a mod to your game to change whatever effects, or gameplay values then knowing how to install a mod would be important.

When you download a mod via Armaholic, usually the page for the mod will have a link to an FAQ on how to install a mod, as well as links to any required files that the mod needs in order to run.

99% almost 100% of the time a mod needs CBA.

Once you become accustomed to a mod setup, and concept behind the modding system in the game then you'll be able to do alot of things.

As mentioned before the biggest problem is with multiplayer. There is no easy way to join a server from the in-game browser and automatically activate or download the right addons. Anyone who joins our server, and is not from our community, has the wrong addons and is kicked. Always, 100% of the people. Sure, we have our own Six Updater preset and manuals on our website to explain people how to download the required addons. But if you just try to join a server via the in-game browser it will almost never work. For those people who are not in a community or clan, there should be a system to easily join a server running addons. Manually searching for addons on Armaholic to join a random server isn't going to work and never has worked (for those people).

Gunter thanks for your reply and perspective, interesting that you should say that what is available in arma 2 is adequate. I think it's probably fair to say though that the majority do no share your point of view. I'm not saying what's available in arma 2 doesn't work its just that it feels aimed at your type of player, the hardcore veteran who has above average perseverance and above average forum reading and search skills. What we need is a system in arma 3 that anybody can use whether it's the first pc game they have ever bought (this is possible, console fans will see arma3 and the affluent may purchase a pc just for it) or are seasoned vets like yourself. User friendliness is the key here, succeed at that and the servers that require mods to join will be full of people trying out the mods instead of them nearly all being empty like they are now.

I have 6 friends who purchased arma 2, 5 have never used a mod, 1 uses jsrs but has to get me to setup his steam command line. So out of 7 customers 1(me) has ever worked out how to use a mod. This forum is not the majority, most don't even visit forums unless they are in dire need of a solution. So modded servers are at the moment available to such a tiny slice of the customers that purchased arma 2 and yet it champions the mod community. There is something missing here!

Fully agree.

[antoineflemming 14]

Gunter thanks for your reply and perspective, interesting that you should say that what is available in arma 2 is adequate. I think it's probably fair to say though that the majority do no share your point of view. I'm not saying what's available in arma 2 doesn't work its just that it feels aimed at your type of player, the hardcore veteran who has above average perseverance and above average forum reading and search skills. What we need is a system in arma 3 that anybody can use whether it's the first pc game they have ever bought (this is possible, console fans will see arma3 and the affluent may purchase a pc just for it) or are seasoned vets like yourself. User friendliness is the key here, succeed at that and the servers that require mods to join will be full of people trying out the mods instead of them nearly all being empty like they are now.

I have 6 friends who purchased arma 2, 5 have never used a mod, 1 uses jsrs but has to get me to setup his steam command line. So out of 7 customers 1(me) has ever worked out how to use a mod. This forum is not the majority, most don't even visit forums unless they are in dire need of a solution. So modded servers are at the moment available to such a tiny slice of the customers that purchased arma 2 and yet it champions the mod community. There is something missing here!

Surely you, as a modder, want as many people to enjoy ur mod as possible?

I know this is a post that is a couple days old, but this right here is key. Finally, someone said it. The idea that it's straight forward to just get SU stems from the idea that the majority of ArmA2/3 players are/will be members of the forum. For the community, an updated SU for ArmA3 would suffice. But, for the majority of BIS's customers, that really won't do, unless BIS actively promotes SU. What would be better is if BIS worked with Sickboy to implement some kind of mod management system in the game. It's nice and all to try to promote Six Updater here, but unless BIS promotes it for ArmA3, so that all of their customers know about it, then it defeats the ultimate purpose of providing adequate mod management for all customers. I mean, that's what this thread is about, right? Automatic Mod Downloading, so that mods and joining servers are more straightforward, more accessible (as in the very core word, able to access servers)?

[dmarkwick 261]

One minor change would make a lot of difference, a silent ingame boot. Have the browser functionality separate from the game engine so that the game engine can reboot itself in the background to cater for mods being disabled/enabled etc. Like, once a server has been decided on, the browser engine reboots the game engine with the appropriate addons enabled. This business with leaving the game manually, setting up/choosing a new game boot shortcut is the thing that probably turns off more new people than any other. However easy that process is made, it's annoying that you have to boot up using one configuration before finding out that you must then leave, set up, then restart the game with a new configuration. If this process were silent & automatic, things would be much smoother.

[antoineflemming 14]

One minor change would make a lot of difference, a silent ingame boot. Have the browser functionality separate from the game engine so that the game engine can reboot itself in the background to cater for mods being disabled/enabled etc. Like, once a server has been decided on, the browser engine reboots the game engine with the appropriate addons enabled. This business with leaving the game manually, setting up/choosing a new game boot shortcut is the thing that probably turns off more new people than any other. However easy that process is made, it's annoying that you have to boot up using one configuration before finding out that you must then leave, set up, then restart the game with a new configuration. If this process were silent & automatic, things would be much smoother.

That would be great. And, really, it'd just need to reboot the addons. This would be great any time someone needed to add or remove an addon (to/from the ingame expansions list)

[rory_pamphilon 16]

I know this is a post that is a couple days old, but this right here is key. Finally, someone said it. The idea that it's straight forward to just get SU stems from the idea that the majority of ArmA2/3 players are/will be members of the forum. For the community, an updated SU for ArmA3 would suffice. But, for the majority of BIS's customers, that really won't do, unless BIS actively promotes SU. What would be better is if BIS worked with Sickboy to implement some kind of mod management system in the game. It's nice and all to try to promote Six Updater here, but unless BIS promotes it for ArmA3, so that all of their customers know about it, then it defeats the ultimate purpose of providing adequate mod management for all customers. I mean, that's what this thread is about, right? Automatic Mod Downloading, so that mods and joining servers are more straightforward, more accessible (as in the very core word, able to access servers)?

Yeah lets hope BIS go for a built in mod downloader/launcher. Im not disrespecting sickboys work at all, i think its fantastic what hes managed to achieve by seeing a gap in Arma 2's abilities and exploiting it with his launcher. I think though the simplest and most accessable solution would be to have it all done in game by the this new server browser/mod downloader/launcher as it keeps it all in one place and is obvious to people who may not otherwise have ever bothered with installing mods. I think there will be a direct relationship between the accessability of the solution they put in place and the number of player you will see on modded servers in Arma 3. The easier it is, the fuller the modded servers will be. If its really simple there will hopefully be just as many players playing modded servers as vanilla servers. it could spawn all manner of amazing new game types running on new maps (not that i dont think lemnos will be amazing) using new units and weapons.

BIS please put this architecture in place inside your arma 3 engine from the start, it will ensure player numbers more than anything :)

Edited April 30, 2012 by rory_pamphilon

[antoineflemming 14]

Yeah lets hope BIS go for a built in mod downloader/launcher. Im not disrespecting sickboys work at all, i think its fantastic what hes managed to achieve by seeing a game in Arma 2's abilities and exploiting it with his launcher. I think though the simplest and most accessable solution would be to have it all done in game by the this new server browser/mod downloader/launcher as it keeps it all in one place and is obvious to people who may not otherwise have ever bothered with installing mods. I think there will be a direct relationship between the accessability of the solution they put in place and the number of player you will see on modded servers in Arma 3. The easier it is, the fuller the modded servers will be. If its really simple there will hopefully be just as many players playing modded servers as vanilla servers. it could spawn all manner of amazing new game types running on new maps (not that i dont think lemnos will be amazing) using new units and weapons.

BIS please put this architecture in place inside your arma 3 engine from the start, it will ensure player numbers more than anything :)

A little offtopic here, but even having a mod downloader/launcher built in isn't enough. I kinda mentioned it a while ago, but I think that addons should be able to be classified by categories. Either that, or ArmA3's hopefully-soon-to-be mod downloader/launcher will be able to classify parts of addons by their config classes. Here's the reason why:

Let's say you have a mod that has everything: units, vehicles, sounds, weapons, headgear, glasses, uniforms, etc. Neither vehicles, weapons, or units will work in a modded/unmodded server where those mods aren't being used by the host, regardless of whether the server is restricted to some mods, any mod, or no mods at all. There would be tons of incompatibility issues, especially with weapons.

But, say, I just wanted to be able to use some custom gear or helmets, or anything for that matter, things that don't affect actual gameplay. It'd be nice to be able to still use those things regardless of whether a server allows mods or not, simply because they don't affect gameplay. It'd be great if ArmA3 had a system where, upon joining a server, a vanilla or modded server (that didn't have the particular addon you had) would recognize your customization items, allow those through, while disabling any other parts of the mod/addon that actually affect gameplay. Basically only letting sound mods and appearance items through. I understand that other players wouldn't have those appearance items; a solution to that would be to somehow designate a base custom item, maybe looking like a basic helmet, or basic eyewear, or body armor, or whatever, kinda like how in ArmA2, if someone can't see your custom face, they see a white pasty looking face. Something like this would still allow players who wanted custom gear to be able to still join vanilla servers and servers which don't have your particular addon. Because, for me at least, while I do play with mods and on a modded server, sometimes I'd like to be able to join a vanilla server while keeping my custom eyewear.

[rory_pamphilon 16]

It's an interesting point you raise about the mod internals being labelled or grouped. Not only would it allow selective loading of parts of the mod that would only effect the client but it also would prove advantageous when a mod has been updated. Let's say a big mod, I44 or ace that's made up of many small parts pushed out an update but that update only effected tanks and tank sound effects. If the mod was labelled/divided into sections and if this mod downloader supported it is possible that it could intelligently download only what has been updated/added.

This would stop the primary annoyance with such a system which I think is people's concern over download times. I may be wrong here, maybe somebody of a higher modding skill can help me out but a good portion of a mod update is actually the same data pumped out again, it's just that some sections have changed and therefore as the current system needs whole mods, the whole thing needs to be downloaded again.

Sickboy is this evening possible? Intelligent most updating/patching for large mods?

[fraczek 4]

This would stop the primary annoyance with such a system which I think is people's concern over download times. I may be wrong here, maybe somebody of a higher modding skill can help me out but a good portion of a mod update is actually the same data pumped out again, it's just that some sections have changed and therefore as the current system needs whole mods, the whole thing needs to be downloaded again.

Sickboy is this evening possible? Intelligent most updating/patching for large mods?

Sickboy's excellent SixUpdater is already doing this :) Downloading only the parts that differ. So it's definitely possible, without any subdivision of the main mod needed.

But, say, I just wanted to be able to use some custom gear or helmets, or anything for that matter, things that don't affect actual gameplay. It'd be nice to be able to still use those things regardless of whether a server allows mods or not, simply because they don't affect gameplay.

I don't think that would work, IMO, it could be downright dangerous. If a server only accepts vanilla, so be it. You can't really tell if a mod is cosmetic only or if it would affect gameplay in some subtle way. It could also easily allow for some sort of cheating. One example - DayZ uses sound distance values from Vanilla to compute if a zombie hears your shots or not. The reason why JSRS or other soundmods aren't allowed there is that they would have to be mandatory for all, otherwise players with a soundmod would have different chance of attracting zombies (other players) than players without it. We would be treading on very swampy ground here.

[LeeManatee 4]

build in launcher which will allow you to dl mods and mod pages will be absolutely outstanding.

BIS, PLEASE DO IT.

it could look and work like it works in garry's mod[/b]

Edited May 11, 2012 by Max Power