Automatic Mod Downloading

[Panda_pl 0]

Torrent idea is nice but people would disable it while playing because it would cause lag.

Server hosted mods are nice idea in theory, but I stand by my original comment. The additional traffic would generate additional costs and admins would just disable the feature.

Big source mods (Insurgency) are not downloadable from servers. You need to install them via Steam like other Source games. It only works for small mods. Even then many servers just tell you to go download the mod and come back once you're ready. Most of those mods are quite simplistic.

In addition to this ArmA servers need more room and bandwidth than other multiplayer games mentioned AFAIK. Bi did allow downloading mission files off the server so it's obviously their decision not to do the same for larger mod files.

Solutions to problems often do not scale.

[gossamersolid 155]

Big source mods (Insurgency) are not downloadable from servers. You need to install them via Steam like other Source games. It only works for small mods.

Nope, you CANNOT make that comparison. The way mods for the actual Source Engine works is that newly compiled code and art assets must be installed like a game because those Mods RUN like a seperate game.

The way mods work in Arma is that you put PBO files in a folder and it runs them. So no, you can't make that comparison at all.

---------- Post added at 17:10 ---------- Previous post was at 17:08 ----------

Just a headsup mate :)

If thats true I go rent myself a game server there for $150 and pay $10 for my 45+TB bandwidth I need with Armaholic. This is going to save me around 500 euro a month ........such an amazing deal, I am sure there is a catch so better read the terms of service first which I did :)

8GB max HD space usage, 1GB max memory usage, no peer-to-peer.............so I guess with a release like ACE, I44, CWR and a few others your soon up to 8GB.

And what about this:

Really, if file hosting would be so easy and cheap do you really think I would have needed to add so many ads on Armaholic? ;)

Didn't read that, my mistake. It's still possible to be used as a redirect location for fast downloads if you archive the files and split them. I know the source and Unreal engines support BZip2 compression which works pretty good.

But yes, that is a limitation. There are of course always catches with stuff like this :)

[batto 17]

Torrent idea is nice but people would disable it while playing because it would cause lag.

Lag from what?

Server hosted mods are nice idea in theory, but I stand by my original comment. The additional traffic would generate additional costs and admins would just disable the feature.

What additional traffic are you talking about? What's the difference between downloading 3GB from 1 web server and downloading 3GB from torrent seed? With BitTorrent you can split these 3GB between many seeds. uTP is more friendly protocol if you don't want other application to lag.

Big source mods (Insurgency) are not downloadable from servers. You need to install them via Steam like other Source games. It only works for small mods. Even then many servers just tell you to go download the mod and come back once you're ready. Most of those mods are quite simplistic.

What "only works for small mods"? Why aren't "big mods downloadable from servers"? If steam doesn't "download from server" what method does it use to get the game? Also... screw Steam.

Solutions to problems often do not scale.

Problems are here to be solved.

[gossamersolid 155]

Mods in the source engine aren't the same as Addons (Mods) for ArmA 2.

They also don't have anything to do with Steam, it has to do with the Source Engine. If you read my other post, you need to download/install them outside of a game because they are treated like totally seperate games. They have their own executables.

[PuFu 4600]

@Gossamer

regarding bandwidth and additional fees - I hope Foxhound explained it pretty well (i thank you for that mate)

but:

Server hosting isn't a right, it's a privledge... an expensive one.

It depends where are you looking at it from. For instance the mirrors for SixU are limited - reaching towards 10-12. You would expect more ppl to jump in the bandwaggon and put their bandwidth up. it just doesnt happen.

You could say, from an server/admin owner, that it is a privilege to be allowed to play on my own server, and not a right.

If everyone out there would be keeping that bandwidth for themselves, or server for themselves in extreme cases, there would be no public servers for the pubs to play on.

There are a lot of things that are taken for granted, from BIS, or from different members or arma communities. I am not complaining, it is just the way it is.

@batto

while peer to peer could be an option, i don't think it can solve the entire (theoretic) problem altogether. There will always be people with limited connections, or limited bandwidth (aussy ppl for instance), even 5 years from now.

On the other hand, forcing server owner to host the mods they are using, while in theory sounds fair, is also not really possible to do. Especially if you want to keep latency high and allow the game server to make use of the existing bandwidth, instead of splitting it between the downloader party and the lads playing.

[gossamersolid 155]

Look, bottom line, here's what I'm saying.

Right now servers in the game don't even provide the option, people go download mods and install them on their own. If the feature would be supported and the server admins don't have the available bandwidth, they simply don't use it

I don't see any other argument that I can make...

Plus who is saying you have to host a download for a mod such as ACE (Or any other large). What if you want your server to provide downloads for some small gameplay mods you are enforcing, but you say to people "You need ACE".

Just because the option for allowing any size of file to be downloaded from a host, doesn't mean that the server admin SHOULD set it up that way.

[Nikoladis 12]

Well ArmA games is already on steam.

Games like Skyrim also have both Addons and Mods. Steam handles download of that content real fine. Also the big files.

I hope ArmA 3 will make use of Steam for downloading Mods and Addons.

The guys who want to download from Armaholic and install themselves and stuff, should still be able to.

But for most people, get downloadable content, free and paid (as now), through Steam would be a most welcome addition.

[gossamersolid 155]

Well ArmA games is already on steam.

Games like Skyrim also have both Addons and Mods. Steam handles download of that content real fine. Also the big files.

I hope ArmA 3 will make use of Steam for downloading Mods and Addons.

The guys who want to download from Armaholic and install themselves and stuff, should still be able to.

But for most people, get downloadable content, free and paid (as now), through Steam would be a most welcome addition.

Skryim is a steamworks game, hence it can use the Steam Workshop as a mod downloading source, but ArmA 3 will not be steamworks, so that's out of the question.

[tacticalnuggets 24]

This thread continues on because its important. It is definitely funny seeing people frustrated with getting dayz working. However, you have to understand the population and how the global system works for getting more people into the game. People are, on average, not very smart or tech savvy. You have to make it easier for them to get into modded servers without imposing a community made tool that cant be found built into the game.

I read a Sciam article that actually reminded me of this situation. It had to do with the time efficiency of purchasing items online. I currently find it pretty easy, but if people are to consume more it must be made even easier. That is essentially the same situation in this game, but has to do with downloading mods instead of purchasing a product.

[rory_pamphilon 16]

Look, bottom line, here's what I'm saying.

Right now servers in the game don't even provide the option, people go download mods and install them on their own. If the feature would be supported and the server admins don't have the available bandwidth, they simply don't use it

I don't see any other argument that I can make...

Plus who is saying you have to host a download for a mod such as ACE (Or any other large). What if you want your server to provide downloads for some small gameplay mods you are enforcing, but you say to people "You need ACE".

Just because the option for allowing any size of file to be downloaded from a host, doesn't mean that the server admin SHOULD set it up that way.

If I'm honest this is the way I would see it unfolding if implemented. Allow the system to function for any size of mod, in a way, future proofing Arma 3. But I image it would mostly be used for smaller things...

Balancing of warfare games by including a few more modded vehicles for weaker side (not BIS's job to balance)

Inclusion of a blood mod in Pvp

The excellent fire & smoke mods

Etc

Small Things that make a big difference but are never really used online because the mod installation process you have to go through is too fiddly and long winded.

Aim at that and yet include the ability to download gigs if needed to cope with any possible future tech/bandwidth/cost possibilities.

[sgt_hawkins 9]

It wouldn't be hard to implement this..Sure some mods are big but you only have to download them once and whenever ACE updates, I don't have to install the whole thing over. This can and should be implemented in Arma 3...The community looses many players because of the complex mod management.

[batto 17]

while peer to peer could be an option, i don't think it can solve the entire (theoretic) problem altogether. There will always be people with limited connections, or limited bandwidth (aussy ppl for instance), even 5 years from now.

On the other hand, forcing server owner to host the mods they are using, while in theory sounds fair, is also not really possible to do. Especially if you want to keep latency high and allow the game server to make use of the existing bandwidth, instead of splitting it between the downloader party and the lads playing.

The BitTorrent protocol can be used to reduce the server and network impact of distributing large files. Rather than downloading a file from a single source server, the BitTorrent protocol allows users to join a "swarm" of hosts to download and upload from each other simultaneously.

If we forget clients and game servers acting as seeds this will still be advantage over current mirrored web servers. Any volunteer could join the swarm and seed some mods instantly (and it'll still be authentic). But of course many problems remain.

Edited May 18, 2012 by batto

[gossamersolid 155]

If I'm honest this is the way I would see it unfolding if implemented. Allow the system to function for any size of mod, in a way, future proofing Arma 3. But I image it would mostly be used for smaller things...

Balancing of warfare games by including a few more modded vehicles for weaker side (not BIS's job to balance)

Inclusion of a blood mod in Pvp

The excellent fire & smoke mods

Etc

Small Things that make a big difference but are never really used online because the mod installation process you have to go through is too fiddly and long winded.

Aim at that and yet include the ability to download gigs if needed to cope with any possible future tech/bandwidth/cost possibilities.

Right, I'm not saying there should be a limitation. It's more up to the server admin to figure out what their server can and cannot handle.

For example, ArmA 2 dedicated servers don't prevent you from playing a mission your box can't really handle. It's up to you to figure out what your hardware can and cannot handle in terms of unit counts.

[jackrabbitslim7 10]

Couldn't we use torrents to download mods ? It could be quite fast and won't overload a server.

Only If it's legal of course.

[rfc 10]

I don't think the technology at hand is really the issue here. If it's either HTTP or BitTorrent or both, in both circumstances you would need someone to set up the resources anyway. Either a HTTP-Server serving them or some persistent tracker and seeds to feed them.

Only If it's legal of course.

Please note there's nothing per se illegal with using BitTorrent; it's only what users download with it. That's no different then using e.g. HTTP or FTP, etc.

I think the bigger issues are the dependencies and possibly conflicting versions. For games, downloading, delta-downloading, etc. are all things which have been solved. But providing good mod dependency resolution, handling conflicting version, etc. can really become a PITA and it will be interesting to what extend BIS is able to provide a solution for the things.

[dale0404 5]

Ok, a litle tired here.

What is the difference between DayZ mod and doing this for Arma 3?

[rory_pamphilon 16]

Ok, a litle tired here.

What is the difference between DayZ mod and doing this for Arma 3?

I'm not 100% sure what your asking but il give tougher best answer I can..

Currently dayZ is taking off bigtime and quite deservedly too, it builds on some of the best aspects of arma, the amazing graphics, atmosphere & sheer size of Chernarus, the rpg elements, the weapon ballistics & the open ended modding nature of arma 2. It combines all this and produces something totally new and fresh. The problem with all this is that it exposes to an even greater extent the convoluted & confusing methods you have to use to download & launch arma 2 mods.

If dayZ stays into arma 3 and auto downloading is used all you would have to do is select the dayZ server you want to join and it downloads the mod for you, installs it for you, then restarts arma with mod loaded and rejoins the server. There is no messy downloading of 7-8 different zips, no combining files into one mod folder, no realisation that your running the wrong version and need to do it all again.

The future solution should be simple, I like sickboys auto updater but it's far far too complicated for the majority of customers that will buy arma 3.

It should be one click to join, download, install and rejoin a modded servers in Arma 3 :)

[Minoza 11]

I remember seeing some old WIP "simple" UI in Six, something like that would be suitable for newbies, leaving all the advanced stuff hidden for the more experienced users. I can't see anything complicated besides the look of it... It autoupdates, looks for mods, you just need to click the right one... Can it be simpler?

[antoineflemming 14]

I'm not 100% sure what your asking but il give tougher best answer I can..

Currently dayZ is taking off bigtime and quite deservedly too, it builds on some of the best aspects of arma, the amazing graphics, atmosphere & sheer size of Chernarus, the rpg elements, the weapon ballistics & the open ended modding nature of arma 2. It combines all this and produces something totally new and fresh. The problem with all this is that it exposes to an even greater extent the convoluted & confusing methods you have to use to download & launch arma 2 mods.

If dayZ stays into arma 3 and auto downloading is used all you would have to do is select the dayZ server you want to join and it downloads the mod for you, installs it for you, then restarts arma with mod loaded and rejoins the server. There is no messy downloading of 7-8 different zips, no combining files into one mod folder, no realisation that your running the wrong version and need to do it all again.

The future solution should be simple, I like sickboys auto updater but it's far far too complicated for the majority of customers that will buy arma 3.

It should be one click to join, download, install and rejoin a modded servers in Arma 3 :)

You forgot one very important aspect of DayZ that makes it popular. The fact that it is about Zombies. It wouldn't be nearly as popular if it were about something other than zombies. That said, regardless of whatever mod is running, downloading a large mod on a server would take a long time. Whether there's downloading or not, I'd like some kind of solution (I'm not going to pretend to know what solution would work) where you don't have to RESTART ArmA3 in order to run the right mod. I'd like to be able to enable/disable mods without having to close and reopen the executable file. It'd also be really handy when you're running mods and you join a vanilla server or a server that's running some but no all of the mods you currently have enabled. The game would disable whatever mods/addons are not running on that server, and enable/download whatever mods that server IS running. Not sure if BIS could actually pull something like this off, but if they are able to do this, then this solution + the automatic mod downloading would pretty much solve the whole "X server runs A,B,C,D, and E mods that I don't have, and I have to quit, find mods, put mods in right folder, run ArmA, enable mods, restart ArmA, and then hope I got the right stuff" issue.

[batto 17]

Whether there's downloading or not, I'd like some kind of solution (I'm not going to pretend to know what solution would work) where you don't have to RESTART ArmA3 in order to run the right mod. I'd like to be able to enable/disable mods without having to close and reopen the executable file.

Ever changed resolution in Quake or Counter-Strike? If BIS will make it I don't think they'll left out such rocket science like automatically restarting something...

[SpecOp9 0]

I agree with the original poster. I just recently reinstalled ARMA 2 and was out of the loop for a long time (dvd drive wasnt working, recent patch had no CD allowed)

Tried to play on some servers... THIS, not allowed by server. THAT not allowed. This and that mod installed incorrectly. My suggestion is to build an ARMA launcher with the original packaging. Something similar to how TES: Morrowind/Oblivion/Skyrim handles mods (which is PERFECT).

One simple file you plop into the addons folder, and check or uncheck it on the launcher.

[gossamersolid 155]

I agree with the original poster. I just recently reinstalled ARMA 2 and was out of the loop for a long time (dvd drive wasnt working, recent patch had no CD allowed)

Tried to play on some servers... THIS, not allowed by server. THAT not allowed. This and that mod installed incorrectly. My suggestion is to build an ARMA launcher with the original packaging. Something similar to how TES: Morrowind/Oblivion/Skyrim handles mods (which is PERFECT).

One simple file you plop into the addons folder, and check or uncheck it on the launcher.

The "mod not allowed on this server" will not get solved with a launcher, it has nothing to do with a launcher.

That has to do with server admins not wanting x mods on their server, which isn't an issue as far as I'm concerned.

[batto 17]

The "mod not allowed on this server" will not get solved with a launcher, it has nothing to do with a launcher.

That has to do with server admins not wanting x mods on their server, which isn't an issue as far as I'm concerned.

You should read this thread from beginning including OP before playing smart guy.

[waxman 5]

After reading some of this thread people are really loosing the point. Getting back to the core issue here I think is needed.

To me this would seem to be that there needs to be some method of automatically providing a list of mods required for a game in progress on a server and the "Option" for the player of installing that immediately on join or deciding not to and moving on to a different server. This also would involve either run time loading of the mod or managed restart of the client with the specific mods required included after the restart (dynamic launch options).

Run time loading would be the preferable option I reckon but Arma currently does not support this and it would also be the most technically challenging option requiring changes to the core game.

Then there are a bunch of nice to haves that stream line this in particular variable Mod sources, from the top of my head options should be server defined sources, mod defined sources, community defined sources and user defined sources. There should also be support for various transport methods FTP, BitTorrent and HTTP being the most obvious. Having multiple sources should also provide current source speed and load possibly with dynamic migration between them.

Essentially what these nice to haves equate to is a Mod browser / Downloader / updater that can be utilised by the server browser this is much like many other 3rd party tools have been doing for many years but integrated. In reality you would want the tool to be run-able out side of game as well as from the server browser, i really do not want to have to have a heavy duty game running while I decide on mods, dl initial huge data volumes or even touch BitTorrent.

Perhaps the simplest solution is a mod browser / game launcher application written by BI that works much in the same way BF3 does launching externally for each server join or mission change. I would like to see this but with some method for caching assets / mods between launches improving load time.

All of this would require some standardised publication method with defined meta data and mod file organisation. There should also be some method of allowing file hosts to recoup some costs, integrated links to news sites like armaholics embedded adds in the mod / source selection and detail pages etc. this is of course where it get legal and difficult. and of course some method of covering the maintenance costs of such an application (game sales or other channels).

And that is just my take on the simplest basics of the core issue and possible implementation.

[noubernou 77]

Already exists, its called six updater and it works pretty much perfectly most of the time.