Automatic Mod Downloading

[max power 21]

n7snk

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[[aps]gnat 28]

...

I think the DayZ mod is a perfect example of why BIS need to add (or cooperate with a good 3rd party to do it) a mod downloader.

People are tripping over themselves trying to buy the right copy of the game (thats another problem) and then to get the mod added.

Be it their own mod. or someone elses, it can add a HUGE boost to their bank account !

[rory_pamphilon 16]

Day Z is the perfect example, its obviously a superb mod, there's even an article over on the pcgamer website about it just now. If some form of automatic mod downloading was used so many more customers would be able to enjoy this amazing experience over and above the brilliant vanilla Arma 3. Server numbers would explode, word would spread, more copies would be sold :-)

If some form of intelligent auto updating was utilised minor updates for mods like this would be hassle free and of minimal file size as the core files are already there and dont need to be downloaded again.

Slightly off topic but how about using some sort of join queuing system, this mad rable of clicking refresh refresh refresh then join for a full server is tiring and wears my mouse out unnecessarily. Queing is the way forward. Us British have bn at it for years, it does work :-P it rewards the patient not the trigger happy. This is ethos of arma is it not? :-)

[jackrabbitslim7 10]

I'm all for an integrated mod downloader, I play RO1 and 2 and when a server require a mod you download it automatically before joining, it was the same system for call of duty 1 or 2 and it's a nice feature.

OP have a good idea.

[zoog 18]

Steam Workshop is also interesting, because it's an accessible way to present the average customer with custom content. Yes, I know it has to be far more than that (match mods with servers you join, auto downloading etc) but I'm just talking about how to present it to average Joe not active on forums and the like.

[Panda_pl 0]

I'm all for an integrated mod downloader, I play RO1 and 2 and when a server require a mod you download it automatically before joining, it was the same system for call of duty 1 or 2 and it's a nice feature.

OP have a good idea.

I am sure a system that works for 350kb mod will be just fine with 50 slot server and 3GB of mods.

[rory_pamphilon 16]

I am sure a system that works for 350kb mod will be just fine with 50 slot server and 3GB of mods.

Why should the number of slots on the game server effect downloading mods from a mod server? If this is sarcasm please go back and read original post.

Look how popular day Z is, there is only one long term complaint I'm seeing popping up all over the place and that is people are having difficulty downloading and installing the mod. If auto downloading was used for day Z & provided enough servers were running we would see zero complaints.

I think it's unacceptable in this day and age to have huge long mod installation guides on unofficial forums as the sole way for a noob to attempt to play an arma mod.

[gossamersolid 155]

I am sure a system that works for 350kb mod will be just fine with 50 slot server and 3GB of mods.

Ummmm yeah, it'd be fine. Use the download system with a redirect server like Unreal Engine and Source Engine games use and it doesn't matter the slots or size of the mods, you are downloading from a server meant to have traffic.

Plus you're missing the point, we should have the feature. Some people might only have 5mb of mods, some people can have 50GB. It'd obviously tell the user prior to downloading and they could cancel during it if they don't want to wait.

The feature should be there!

[rory_pamphilon 16]

Thanks gossamer, its nice to have somebody with a bit of 'clout' post on here, this needs as much attention as possible in my opinion. Arma has always been about pushing the limits of hardware, I remember OFP & Arma having settings that can't be used by even the most powerful hardware on release day. They future proof their engines because moores law exists, pcs inevitably get more powerful. Settings can be enabled in the future that make ur pc struggle at the moment..

So, even though downloading a 3GB mod now sounds crazy in the future Internet speeds will increase, fibre optic will be everywhere, mods will be downloaded quicker than ever.

Why would anybody not want the option to automatically download, install and run a mod automatically?

[dmarkwick 261]

Why would anybody not want the option to automatically download, install and run a mod automatically?

If it was built in as a possibility, people would either use it or not use it. Either stream it from the server or another remote storage server. Saying it's not needed is being short-sighted IMO :) whatever features exist, get used by someone somewhere.

[PuFu 4591]

So, even though downloading a 3GB mod now sounds crazy in the future Internet speeds will increase, fibre optic will be everywhere, mods will be downloaded quicker than ever.

Why would anybody not want the option to automatically download, install and run a mod automatically?

I'm not saying that an out of the box solution shouldn't be made by BIS, on the contrary, there should be one right from the start.

The real questions regarding your post is: where would each of those people download those 3GBs of mods from?

From Armaholic type of websites? Aholic is paying itself based on the number of individual access per month (web ads). But that won't be possible via an auto-downloader, would it?

I am not being sarcastic here or anything, this is a genuine question i have regarding such a system, because i am certain that BIS does not afford the huge bandwidth needed for a few thousand players.

[gossamersolid 155]

I'm not saying that an out of the box solution shouldn't be made by BIS, on the contrary, there should be one right from the start.

The real questions regarding your post is: where would each of those people download those 3GBs of mods from?

From Armaholic type of websites? Aholic is paying itself based on the number of individual access per month (web ads). But that won't be possible via an auto-downloader, would it?

I am not being sarcastic here or anything, this is a genuine question i have regarding such a system, because i am certain that BIS does not afford the huge bandwidth needed for a few thousand players.

The way it works for other engines is that each server host is reponsible for the location.

In the source engine and the Unreal Engine, you can define a "Fast Download" server which is basically an HTTP server that offloads all the downloading of mods/maps to the client. If no "Fast Download" server is defined, it downloads the files off of the game server (which isn't recommended in most cases).

Server admins in both engines can also turn off content download from the server (which is sorta how arma works right now, right).

[PuFu 4591]

The way it works for other engines is that each server host is reponsible for the location.

In the source engine and the Unreal Engine, you can define a "Fast Download" server which is basically an HTTP server that offloads all the downloading of mods/maps to the client. If no "Fast Download" server is defined, it downloads the files off of the game server (which isn't recommended in most cases).

Server admins in both engines can also turn off content download from the server (which is sorta how arma works right now, right).

I wasn't aware of this feature of UE.

Anyhow, that would actually be a fair thing to do. That said, not sure how many would be willing to spend more money on the extra bandwidth when big mods/addons are concerned. Not saying it is not possible, but i for one have seen the KH monthly bill go up to 2x the normal fee for a couple of months when ACE2 was released, and we had the yoma dn link available.

[onlyrazor 11]

I'd like to see a screen come up and say "This server requires user-made content. Would you like to download the following files: "File1.pbo", "File2.pbo"? Total file size: 25mB

Yes/No.

Just to keep the user in control.

[zoog 18]

I wasn't aware of this feature of UE.

Anyhow, that would actually be a fair thing to do. That said, not sure how many would be willing to spend more money on the extra bandwidth when big mods/addons are concerned. Not saying it is not possible, but i for one have seen the KH monthly bill go up to 2x the normal fee for a couple of months when ACE2 was released, and we had the yoma dn link available.

We also had this for Raven Shield, although it was just custom maps so small amounts of data.

But you'll have to keep in mind that once someone downloaded ACE from a server, they don't have to download it all over again when joining another server. So the bandwidth load will probably be spread rather evenly over all public servers running the ACE mod, because the players are also spread across these servers. So it's fair to assume that a certain percentage of people that join your server got their ACE mod from a different server and don't need to use any of your bandwidth.

[batto 17]

I think torrents are ideal solution. BIS and other reliable volunteers would just host trackers which doesn't require much bandwidth and game servers would act as seeds (with custom upload limits of course). Lobbies for Spring RTS (real-time strategy engine) already does it (SpringLobby and Zero-K). How should clients participate is a question. I suggest that clients should only seed mods that they're just using (playing) with configurable limits and possibility to opt-out from seeding.

Another thing are versions and updates. Downloading 3GB mod again for one-line fix isn't good. This could be solved by seeding also deltas. Yum package manager does it too (I've no idea how it deals with compression).

[gossamersolid 155]

I wasn't aware of this feature of UE.

Anyhow, that would actually be a fair thing to do. That said, not sure how many would be willing to spend more money on the extra bandwidth when big mods/addons are concerned. Not saying it is not possible, but i for one have seen the KH monthly bill go up to 2x the normal fee for a couple of months when ACE2 was released, and we had the yoma dn link available.

There are quite a few GSPs out there that provide unmetered bandwidth/storage for a very low price (sometimes included with the purchase of a game server).

I'm pretty sure NFOServers.com has <$10/Month USD unmetered hosting.

I think torrents are ideal solution. BIS and other reliable volunteers would just host trackers which doesn't require much bandwidth and game servers would act as seeds (with custom upload limits of course). Lobbies for Spring RTS (real-time strategy engine) already does it (SpringLobby and Zero-K). How should clients participate is a question. I suggest that clients should only seed mods that they're just using (playing) with configurable limits and possibility to opt-out from seeding.

Another thing are versions and updates. Downloading 3GB mod again for one-line fix isn't good. This could be solved by seeding also deltas. Yum package manager does it too (I've no idea how it deals with compression).

I wouldn't want a torrent solution to be completely honest. MMOs/F2P games/Company of Heroes had peer to peer patching systems and I would get loads of problems (I'm looking at you company of heroes). I don't want to be sharing my home connection because a server host is too cheap themselves. If the host can't afford it, turn off server downloads.

Edited May 17, 2012 by GossamerSolid

[batto 17]

I wouldn't want a torrent solution to be completely honest. MMOs/F2P games/Company of Heroes had peer to peer patching systems and I would get loads of problems (I'm looking at you company of heroes). I don't want to be sharing my home connection because a server host is too cheap themselves.

Blame CoH, not torrents. With torrents and multiple servers there would be no problem with load balancing. As I've said there should be possibility to set speed limits and completely opt-out (or opt-in if most ppl are so egoist) on clients. To make it clear how I think clients should participate: If I'm connecting to a server with mod I don't have only the clients playing on THAT server should be my peers (+ game server with low upload limit, volunteer seed servers, ...). If someone other is playing same mod on other server he should not be my peer.

If the host can't afford it, turn off server downloads.

Oh c'mon...

[gossamersolid 155]

Blame CoH, not torrents. With torrents and multiple servers there would be no problem with load balancing. As I've said there should be possibility to set speed limits and completely opt-out (or opt-in if most ppl are so egoist) on clients. To make it clear how I think clients should participate: If I'm connecting to a server with mod I don't have only the clients playing on THAT server should be my peers (+ game server with low upload limit, volunteer seed servers, ...). If someone other is playing same mod on other server he should not be my peer.

Oh c'mon...

You know a lot of people have bandwidth caps on their connections these days, why the hell should we have to give our bandwidth out to everybody because the server host isn't doing their job.

Server hosting isn't a right, it's a privledge... an expensive one.

[batto 17]

@GossamerSolid: Your point? Did you really read my post? That's supposed to be argument against torrents?

You know a lot of people have bandwidth caps on their connections these days

More people doesn't have and in future there will be none. It's 2012. And as I said you should have the possibility to opt-out (or opt-in) or set upload limits.

why the hell should we have to give our bandwidth out to everybody because the server host isn't doing their job.

Because you're connecting to server paid by volunteer so you will pay by your share by serving a tiny little bit from what you've downloaded to people that want to play with you. Why are you so egoist?

Server hosting isn't a right, it's a privledge... an expensive one.

Your point? So ONE web server sending 3GB file to 10 people wasting their upload bandwidth is more efficient?

Edited May 17, 2012 by batto

[rory_pamphilon 16]

LlLet's explore the torrents idea a little as it's hardly been mentioned compared to a file server. I believe we all think a file server is a good idea yet there are concerns over who would pay for it. Il admit right now it's not my area of expertise so I can't provide an answer to that but this may be where torrents shine..

Let's say burried in your arma 3 options is an opt in tickbox with a big bandwidth (and possible associated costs) warning allowing you to seed your mods to anyone else in arma 3.

This would allow those with unlimited Internet connections to seed when not in an online game (would auto stop seeding when opening server browser so pings aren't effected). The advantage of this method is there would be no file server costs so file size becomes irrelevant (apart from waiting times).

On its own it may not be a suitable solution as it requires atleast one person to opt in and then be playing singleplayer or editing etc so for less popular mods it may take some time to download.

What if though, both methods could be used? In-game torrents for the large popular mods, ace, I44, day Z etc so nobody has to worry about forking out for the associated huge bandwidths involved. Yet direct file server links are utilised for smaller less popular mods. What do people think?

[batto 17]

On its own it may not be a suitable solution as it requires atleast one person to opt in and then be playing singleplayer or editing etc so for less popular mods it may take some time to download.

What if though, both methods could be used? In-game torrents for the large popular mods, ace, I44, day Z etc so nobody has to worry about forking out for the associated huge bandwidths involved. Yet direct file server links are utilised for smaller less popular mods. What do people think?

That's not how it should work. The clients acting as peers (and optionally seeds) would be just nice addition. But it's not necessary and it'll still be better than file servers. With multiple file servers you would have to come up with some load balancing method to pick best fileserver. That's the beginning of reinventing torrents. But it'll still be worse because you'll be downloading whole 3GB file from this server. With torrents you'll download parts of file from multiple locations... Well, I guess we all know how it works. Serving something from one torrent seed is same as serving it from file server (without upload limits). So if torrents will be used there will be no need for file servers (http downloads I guess).

Still I think clients should act as peers too with restriction described previously. It's just fair.

[rory_pamphilon 16]

Are you suggesting though that we use the game server as a seed? The whole point of this thread is to keep file traffic away from the game server so it doesn't lag. And also for all file sharing/downloading to cease once in a multiplayer game. The less unnecessary traffic the less lag there will be.

Edited May 17, 2012 by rory_pamphilon

[batto 17]

Are you suggesting though that we use the game server as a seed? The whole point of this thread is to keep file traffic away from the game server so it doesn't lag. And also for all file sharing/downloading to cease once in a multiplayer game. The less unnecessary traffic the less lag there will be.

Why not? As a separate application. The game sends you a torrent with trackers. There could be hundreds of seeds, it doesn't matter where they are. Instead of expensive file server there could be 2 or more cheaper torrent seed machines too. Also don't forget that there'll be many game servers so the burden would not be only on one. There should also be some certificate store and torrents should be signed (maybe something like this) so if you download unkown mod the game will ask you "Do you trust this publishers? Forever?!?".

Let's say burried in your arma 3 options is an opt in tickbox with a big bandwidth (and possible associated costs) warning allowing you to seed your mods to anyone else in arma 3.

This is too intrusive IMO and per-server seeds suggestion isn't as easy as I thought.

Edited May 17, 2012 by batto

[Guest]

Just a headsup mate :)

I'm pretty sure NFOServers.com has <$10/Month USD unmetered hosting.

If thats true I go rent myself a game server there for $150 and pay $10 for my 45+TB bandwidth I need with Armaholic. This is going to save me around 500 euro a month ........such an amazing deal, I am sure there is a catch so better read the terms of service first which I did :)

8GB max HD space usage, 1GB max memory usage, no peer-to-peer.............so I guess with a release like ACE, I44, CWR and a few others your soon up to 8GB.

And what about this:

files over 200MB in size are subject to a throttle of 50 k/s per connection when downloaded through HTTP. FTP upload and download rates are similarly throttled at 100 k/s.

Really, if file hosting would be so easy and cheap do you really think I would have needed to add so many ads on Armaholic? ;)