Plane and Helicopter handling

[5LEvEN 11]

Just as helicopters if you're going to add planes to the game you need to do it right. I personally find realistic flight models for fixed wing aircraft so much easier to use and line up strafing runs, compared to arma's flight model....

[MD500Enthusiast 10]

We know ARMA3 will have helicopter FM from ToH (in some form)

But what about planes? The fixed wing FM needs some work too...

yes that's true, but let's focus one thing at a time huh? i think they're up to their necks in figuring helicopters out atm. wait til arma 4 maybe they'll release take on fixed wing LOL.

[dragon01 902]

I guess that certain things from helicopter flight model could be used for planes. Afterall, basic laws of physics are the same for both. Flight model would be very different, of course, but this should be much easier with heli model already in place.

Not to mention that helicopters start to handle a bit like planes at high speeds. Maybe this could be exploited, and only certain values would need tweaking.

Half of that time comes down to learning the instruments, cockpit layout and functions of said instruments..I don't see that happening though.

I heard that they at one point let some kids into an F-35 simulator and they figured it out fairly quickly. Modern planes are quite user-friendly. I guess that realistic instruments could be done in ArmA III. Something at the level of F/A-18 Super Hornet flight sim (which has rather minimal amount of instruments, most of which use electronic displays and are very easy to use). This this is an old flight sim (manual reads somewhat funny with all these "we couldn't simulate it because it's classified" function descriptions), I found it to be a nice balance between "Falcon 4.0" and "HAWX" flight styles.

Extended startup, of course, could be included for hardcore players (it's just a long check sequence, mostly consisting of flipping switches), but this isn't really important (and most players would turn it off anyway, since it's somewhat complicated and doesn't contribute to gameplay).

[Tonci87 163]

that's what i keep telling her.

:D lol

[Macadam Cow 1]

I'm going to repeat what I've already repeated in the past, sorry :/

Would you stop playing ArmA if it had an option to make helicopters as realistic as DCS: Blackshark ? No, but the DCS players would certainly come and play with us.

Would you stop playing ArmA if it had an option to make the airplane FM as realistic as Falcon 4 ? No, but the Falcon 4 players would certainly come and play with us.

And so on.

IMO, that's where ArmA should be heading to.

Do not force people who don't want such a level of realism to spend hours and hours learning how to start up the damn plane, just make it optional.

So everybody's happy :)

[Vladplaya 10]

Helicopter controls in ArmA2 are just too awkward imo. I can fly just fine, but I don't think that is even close to real life controls.

As arcadish Battlefield chopper controls are, they got the basics down pretty well, you can be much more agile and precise, but it still takes a lot of practice to be superb at flying, which is nice.

[MD500Enthusiast 10]

I'm going to repeat what I've already repeated in the past, sorry :/

IMO, that's where ArmA should be heading to.

Do not force people who don't want such a level of realism to spend hours and hours learning how to start up the damn plane, just make it optional.

So everybody's happy :)

5 minute startup for helis? i can take it or leave it. the intent is not have arma that needs 2 zillion keybinds for every vehicle, the objective is to make it so that the vehicles/aircrafts has the same behavior as the real ones so it's more convincing, it doesn't need to be true to life but it should at least fly/drive like how airplanes/helicopters/vehicles should. as far as the avionics? sure the attack helos/fixed wing could use some improvement so we're not just tab=god.

Edited November 10, 2011 by MD500Enthusiast

[nodunit 397]

Helicopter controls in ArmA2 are just too awkward imo. I can fly just fine, but I don't think that is even close to real life controls.

As arcadish Battlefield chopper controls are, they got the basics down pretty well, you can be much more agile and precise, but it still takes a lot of practice to be superb at flying, which is nice.

Less the flight model and more the weight of the units, there are community addons with more agile helo's and I'm testing one right now..it is possible to have them be so responsive and agile that the slightest touch to the stick will change things rather than having to pull it by 20 or so degree's just to move.

[Macadam Cow 1]

tab=god.

THIS

this is something the ArmA serie definitely need to get rid of.

oh lol, did I spoke that loud :o

[Bee8190 10]

THIS

this is something the ArmA serie definitely need to get rid of.

oh lol, did I spoke that loud :o

I have to agree on thisone and truly hope tab/lock will be thing of the past when arma 3 arrives.

[DarkOddity 10]

I'm a huge fan of realistic flight simulation and I want to see it in ArmA3.

Here is how I feel about it, and allow me to refer to ToH real quick.

In ToH the difficulty of the flight engine for the helicopters is scaled up, from Rookie, to Trainee and finally to Expert. The higher up, the harder it gets, obviously.

Now, as some of you may or may not know there are some groups within the ArmA community that will only play on Expert, with max difficulty settings. These groups do this so they can strive to have the most realistic experience possible in the ArmA environment.

Now, with the difficulty settings in ArmA 2 to me as a helicopter enthusiast this seems quite unfair to me. I try to keep my play to these communities in order to get a realistic experience out of my game time in the form of teamwork. What I don't get however from playing on these types of servers is a more realistic flight experience.

Therefore in conclusion; I feel that it is only fair that the flight experience should scale up in difficulty with the infantry and vehicle combat. It makes perfect logical sense in my personal opinion.

Why? If you want to be a pilot in a 'hardcore' simulation ArmA3 group, you should have to be able to handle the hardcore requirements.

---------

As a side note on the same topic; people who are as into helos as I am will likely have noticed this: Hardcore sim groups in the ArmA community do not have as much respect for dedicated pilots as most, if not all of their members can easily fly a helo in ArmA2 with a keyboard and mouse as good or better than some people with a full flight sim setup.

Now I'm not saying easy is bad, but what I am trying to say is that blanketed simplicity however, is.

[NoRailgunner 0]

Pilots who fly helicopters and tried ToH said that they switched back to lower difficulty because the handling on expert is strange, feels less real and the overall ToH experience isn't fun anymore. Not everything which is labeled "hardcore"/"expert"/"mercenary" represents the real world. Sometimes its just the highest/max setting. ;)

[maddogx 13]

I would like to see the TOH flight model in Arma3 simply because it is more challenging, and although it may not be simultastically accurate (yes, I just made that word up), it's much more realistic than the FM in Arma2.

Anyway, it still has time to mature - let's just hope that BIS listens to the feedback from the real world pilots hanging around in the TOH forum area. I don't expect it to achieve professional sim levels, but I think the FM in TOH could still go a long way, and the result could be a huge plus for Arma3.

[ProfTournesol 956]

Mmmm...hardcore helo sim gamers should stick to their hardcore games, and give us a break with ArmA3. A better FM in ArmA3, why not, but still accessible. Or only bound to the highest difficulty level.

[dragon01 902]

IMHO, the best solution would be to have difficulties for flying, sailing and ground combat separate. So, an RL pilot could choose DCS-level flight, but average ground combat and sailing. Or perhaps difficulty shouldn't be done as "levels" at all, instead exposing the parameters to the player and showing a "realism percentage". Presets should be available, but the player should be encouraged to customize the settings. While it's partially done since OFP, the system needs to be more flexible, allow more options to be modified and have a better interface.

[160thSOAR 10]

I really hope they keep the flight model as-is. For me, flying transport is a big part of this game, and without it, I might quit for a few months. I will come back; to say I would quit for good would be a lie. But having to learn to fly DCS-style would really put me off.

You people argue that you don't like people leaving helicopters lying around because they're useless that way. Well let me tell you something: a helicopter lying in a charred heap on the ground is just as useless. So is one sitting on the ground because someone who doesn't know how to cold-start is sitting in the pilot's seat. The argument about people flying off in helicopters holds no water, I'm afraid, because putting in hardcore simulation will make helicopters more useless in other ways.

If you include this suggestion, helicopters are going to get shot down a lot more. You're going to have to do a lot more running to and from combat zones. You can do impossible things with ArmA2 helicopters that make them much less vulnerable than real-life helicopters. I know that real helicopters can't do anything near the types of maneuvers I can pull off in ArmA2, and I'm hardly an excellent pilot. I'm good, but I've flown with people who are truly awesome, and they're still head and shoulders above me.

You people also seem to think that ArmA2 is designed to be a perfect simulation of everything. Sorry, it's not. ArmA2 fulfills a niche between something like Battlefield and something like VBS. It's a lot closer to VBS, but it is not entirely sim-like. If you really want a sim, do you want to include real qualification tests to use weapons? (Actually, this might be kind of cool for some weapons, but a SOPMOD kit, not so much....) Maybe stay up 20 hours every day to simulate Ranger training? Or maybe only be able to drive, gun, or command an M2 Bradley during the entire time you play ArmA2? No? I didn't think so. But that is what you're asking for when you say "as much realism as possible, it's a SIMULATOR!" Everything can go too far.

ArmA2 aircraft are not as easy to fly as you seem to think. I spent about an hour just learning how to stay in the air for more than 30 seconds. Then I spent another hour learning basic flying. Then I spent 2 or so hours learning how to fly under fire after a debacle in multiplayer. And I've spent a lot more time than that learning more advanced maneuvers. I believe that I'm a pretty good pilot now, but I've put about 10 hours into it in SP, and have probably 70 or so hours logged in MP. That's a lot of time. I don't want to have to spent 10 times that to learn how to fly all over again.

As you might be able to tell from my username, I enjoy flying in this game. I don't think I'll be able to fly if this idea gets instituted, and I'm not happy about it. It would definitely put me off of this game. If I want realism, I would play TKOH or DCS. I don't really want that in ArmA3.

Gentlemen, I close my case for now. I understand that some people feel differently, but most of the people I've talked to in the game feel the same way that I do. I think I've forgotten a few things, so I might be editing this post later.

[MD500Enthusiast 10]

I really hope they keep the flight model as-is. For me, flying transport is a big part of this game, and without it, I might quit for a few months. I will come back; to say I would quit for good would be a lie. But having to learn to fly DCS-style would really put me off.

You people argue that you don't like people leaving helicopters lying around because they're useless that way. Well let me tell you something: a helicopter lying in a charred heap on the ground is just as useless. So is one sitting on the ground because someone who doesn't know how to cold-start is sitting in the pilot's seat. The argument about people flying off in helicopters holds no water, I'm afraid, because putting in hardcore simulation will make helicopters more useless in other ways.

If you include this suggestion, helicopters are going to get shot down a lot more. You're going to have to do a lot more running to and from combat zones. You can do impossible things with ArmA2 helicopters that make them much less vulnerable than real-life helicopters. I know that real helicopters can't do anything near the types of maneuvers I can pull off in ArmA2, and I'm hardly an excellent pilot. I'm good, but I've flown with people who are truly awesome, and they're still head and shoulders above me.

You people also seem to think that ArmA2 is designed to be a perfect simulation of everything. Sorry, it's not. ArmA2 fulfills a niche between something like Battlefield and something like VBS. It's a lot closer to VBS, but it is not entirely sim-like. If you really want a sim, do you want to include real qualification tests to use weapons? (Actually, this might be kind of cool for some weapons, but a SOPMOD kit, not so much....) Maybe stay up 20 hours every day to simulate Ranger training? Or maybe only be able to drive, gun, or command an M2 Bradley during the entire time you play ArmA2? No? I didn't think so. But that is what you're asking for when you say "as much realism as possible, it's a SIMULATOR!" Everything can go too far.

ArmA2 aircraft are not as easy to fly as you seem to think. I spent about an hour just learning how to stay in the air for more than 30 seconds. Then I spent another hour learning basic flying. Then I spent 2 or so hours learning how to fly under fire after a debacle in multiplayer. And I've spent a lot more time than that learning more advanced maneuvers. I believe that I'm a pretty good pilot now, but I've put about 10 hours into it in SP, and have probably 70 or so hours logged in MP. That's a lot of time. I don't want to have to spent 10 times that to learn how to fly all over again.

As you might be able to tell from my username, I enjoy flying in this game. I don't think I'll be able to fly if this idea gets instituted, and I'm not happy about it. It would definitely put me off of this game. If I want realism, I would play TKOH or DCS. I don't really want that in ArmA3.

Gentlemen, I close my case for now. I understand that some people feel differently, but most of the people I've talked to in the game feel the same way that I do. I think I've forgotten a few things, so I might be editing this post later.

choose arcade setting.

[maddogx 13]

This topic seems to be yet another excellent proof for the phrase "you can't please everyone". For years people have been calling for a more realistic flight model in Arma games - so now BIS have finally created one and are thinking about including it in Arma3, but now another group of people goes "nooo, it will make flying too hard! Leave it out!"

:rolleyes:

In the end the ideal solution is the same as always: make it optional. And judging by what BIS have said on the topic so far, that seems to be exactly what they plan to do. Win-win.

That being said, I don't really understand the arguments from people who are opposed to this idea. At least for me, half the fun of any game is mastering its complexities, so as long as the learning curve is managable (which is definitely the case with the TOH FM), I don't see the problem with certain things being a little more difficult.

[Tonci87 163]

Did you try to fly DCS or ToH?

If you are a good pilot in Arma, then you wont have many problems. Yes it will be harder to stay in the air, but you learn it pretty fast.

[NoRailgunner 0]

BIS could make A3 flight experience better but still keep the advanced sim-gameplay for ToH. Win-Win-Win. ;)

Maybe its possible:

Those player who have both games (A3+ToH) installed could enjoy more sophisticated plane + helicoper handling and those who don't enjoy simply A3 improved flight experience. Just something that keep/increase the sales for ToH even if A3 is released. :)

[ProfTournesol 956]

BIS could make A3 flight experience better but still keep the advanced sim-gameplay for ToH. Win-Win-Win. ;)

Maybe its possible:

Those player who have both games (A3+ToH) installed could enjoy more sophisticated plane + helicoper handling and those who don't enjoy simply A3 improved flight experience. Just something that keep/increase the sales for ToH even if A3 is released. :)

Yep, having answered that survey, i suspect something like this could happen, in VBS or in ArmA3 (or both).

[EDcase 87]

Those player who have both games (A3+ToH) installed could enjoy more sophisticated plane + helicoper handling and those who don't enjoy simply A3 improved flight experience. Just something that keep/increase the sales for ToH even if A3 is released. :)

Err... no

I don't want to be forced to buy another bit of software to have realistic FM in A3.

And then what about multiplayer...? Some people using realistic FM against arcade style!?!?! I don't think that will work.

As has been stated before in many posts, the only way for this to work and the way BiS has indicated it will work is linked to difficulty setting.

Perhaps this thread can move on to other interesting things to argue about...

[160thSOAR 10]

I flew TKOH in the beta, and I could fly, but barely. It was fun though, seeing what I could do in a new environment. The thing is, even after playing for around 3 hours, I could still not take off without the help of the auto-hover. I'm not sure if I was doing something wrong, but I found the aircraft's performance so terrible that there would be no way to survive in a combat situation.

As for DCS, I don't even have enough keys on my keyboard to play it. That doesn't make me so happy.

Tab = God AA will also now far exceed the capabilities of realistic helicopters, turning them into big "shoot here" signs. If helicopters get a boost up to simulation levels, why should its AA counterpart not become more difficult to use as well?

Now that you bring it up, I think I might actually be able to keep a helicopter in the air. That's more than what I thought I'd be able to do. But the idea still has major problems.

Isn't the arcade/simulation option serverside?

[Cripsis 10]

Yep, having answered that survey, i suspect something like this could happen, in VBS or in ArmA3 (or both).

Thanks for the link, I didn't know about the survey.

[Baff1 0]

I feel that improvements to the authenticity of any flight model is always to be encouraged, however, myself I prefer my control systems to be very simplified.

I don't want to be spending many many hours training myself to play a game.

I just want to be able to boot up a game and go and get some action.

So for my personal playing preferences the more simplified the better.

I'm one of those enjoyed the original OpF model to the latter ones.

I very much hope that there will be options for idiot/weekend warrior pilots included.

I haven't tried TOH yet, although it is actually at the top of list of games to buy currently.

It sounds a bit too flight sim to hold my attention for very long... but helicopters and a BIS Seattle map holds a big lure for me, that added to a decent price of course.

After all it has long been my assertion that BIS make the best heli sims. At least for my tastes.

It should be noted by the hard core fans of course, that my second favourite helicopter piloting experiences are to be found in Novalgics Joint Operations, so exacting flight models is of less importance to me than being able to easily/immersively mimic the tactical uses of a helicopter in a battlefield enviroment.

Edited November 14, 2011 by Baff1