ArmA 3 on Steamworks?

[Tonmeister 14]

You (and a large number of others) are confusing Steam and Steamworks, they aren't the same.

Steam is a game distribution platform.

Steamworks is an API that when built into a game forces you to use Steam, even if you bought the game retail.

whoa! there you go, i didn't even know that. even mention the word steam or anything of a gaseous nature and i'm suspicious of it... like Gas Powered, or valve. its all about burning more dirty coal.

[Pyronick 21]

I have the Steam version of ArmA 2: Combined Operations, but I do not use Steam for it. It does install with Steam, but you can launch the executable like the retail DVD box game I also happen to own.

Perhaps it is possible to integrate Steamworks without having to install Steam? Also I regularly play on an internet-less computer with the Steam version of ArmA 2. You don't even need to use offline mode because you don't need to start Steam.

Also, there is no DRM involved. People should do their homework better.

[Deadfast 43]

Perhaps it is possible to integrate Steamworks without having to install Steam?

Steamworks = Steam required, that's the whole point of it. There is just no way around that.

Also I regularly play on an internet-less computer with the Steam version of ArmA 2. You don't even need to use offline mode because you don't need to start Steam.

Yes, because Arma 2 does not use Steamworks.

Also, there is no DRM involved. People should do their homework better.

Steam is a DRM by design. Unlike the other systems it actually tries to hide this fact behind functionality and succeeds damn well. It's a DRM done well.

[metalcraze 290]

And how would they be ruining the game? They buy it, play it for the achievements, then move on. Why should you care so much?

What makes you think they will leave immediately and also won't go to forums complaining?

Besides if achievements will, god forbid, make it into a game you will see achievement-whoring on private servers as well. They just affect people like that.

We already have people complaining that ArmA doesn't play like Battlefield / CoD - in fact they really believe all the 'realism' and lack of balance in it are due to dev mistakes. And their complaints do affect the game (see too fast animations, lack of weapon collision which lets kidz machinegun their way through tight buildings)

We are also getting a sniperkidz-friendly island once again.

However achievements is just one of many problems that come with Steam and not the major one by far.

All I want is to buy and play the game without all the bullshit.

If someone dislikes original server browser - there are many alternatives. With Steam there are none.

Edited May 22, 2011 by metalcraze

[Rebel44 10]

I would like if Arma 3 use SteamWorks - improved server browser, Steam Cloud and other such features would be very good news for me.

[enad 11]

I've yet to see any valid reasons why people don't want Steamworks integration besides that they don't want to use Steam. I mean I could understand that if Steam was like GFWL or something, but it's not, Steam is a very good program. You also have to look at it in a good way, just imagine how much easier joining servers would be, the steamworks integration would make things 100x easier and faster.

It's just one of those things alot of developers are switching to because they see the potential in it. Alot of people will only buy games if they're on Steam, so this could mean more sales, but yes it could mean less because there are alot of misinformed and ignorant people out there with an unknown hate for Steam, but I would just love to have a working Steam version of my game.

I do like to have ingame chat and stat tracking, that's why I buy my games from Steam, mods would be no issue, because if it was Steamworks, you could use a mod launcher and it would still launch through Steam, a big +1 for me.

Everyone seems so jaded about what Steam is, it's damn hard to think of a reason why I wouldn't use it. It's got great sales, great interface, easy friends system and much more good things.

Big Dawg KS basically summed up all the main points I was trying to get at.

[Joshua the Grizzly 10]

Over half of the gameplay in the series is OFFLINE gameplay, whether a campaign, user missions, or in the editor. Steam requires an internet connection to start the game (Unless in offline mode, but you have to have internet to start offline mode) so people that don't have access etc. would not be able to use the game they just bought

AFAIK, that is no longer a requirement. Offline mode starts automatically when you are disconnected from the internet.

Steam is a DRM by design. Unlike the other systems it actually tries to hide this fact behind functionality and succeeds damn well. It's a DRM done well.

I am quite sure that it also advertises itself to developers as effective DRM. As in, limited to an account instead of limited to several computers and all that. It also works quite well, yes. Especially since you never have to worry about the disks ever again. Or about switching computers (damn you securom!).

I do know there is a big problem if a game needs to be updated: steam really wants to update the game. Even if it is a single player game, you can not play untill the update is finished, which is rather annoying.

I've yet to see any valid reasons why people don't want Steamworks integration besides that they don't want to use Steam.

I geuss that is more or less the point of all the critisism: You can't have Steamworks without Steam.

Edited May 22, 2011 by Joshua the Grizzly

[cossack8559 10]

Personally i've used steam since 2005 and would not mind at all if ARMA3 required steam. However a lot of people clearly dislike it even if their reasons are untrue it should probably remain optional if possible.

[enad 11]

If there was a way just to include the way Steamworks handles servers, I'd be fine with that.

The only reason I suggested Steamworks was to improve MP functionality.

[runforrest 10]

Steam? I dont like it, i dont want it, especially not for ArmA.

I have it installed because of BRINK,L4D1,RO1 and i will most probably buy RO2.

But if i had a choice i would have bought the non-steam versions. Theres alot of other games that i would have bought but because of Steam i didnt...

why?

Steam is getting bigger and bigger... more and more publishers and developers use it... when u walk through the world with open eyes, open ears and an open mind u can clearly see that when things,companys,structures get/got bigger and bigger and become more and more centralized it is NEVER a good thing(globalization)... at least thats my point of view on our world...

PLUS ArmA is already causing enough headaches, i dont need another possible problem on top of that.

Steam would be a real improvement under 2 conditions:

-integrated userfriendly dedicated server managment

-integrated addon managment for clients and server admins

[Big Dawg KS 6]

-integrated addon managment for clients and server admins

Well, if we ever got to the point where Steam integration allowed addon makers to release through Steam, then I could see this possibly happening. That would be sweet, but it's probably a long way off.

I don't really know why people fear the fact that Steam is centralized. It's not like it's going to turn into Skynet and start a global nuclear war that wipes out mankind. :rolleyes:

[wamingo 1]

Perhaps it's a non issue for the players, but from BIS' perspective I'd be worried that steam might not remain king forever.

I know it looks like valve has won. It's certainly become a favorite amongst core gamers, but I'm not so sure the war is over yet. Gamestop didn't purchase a stake in impulse for no reason. A lot of people seem to think GS will take it lying down while losing in retail.

But perhaps more importantly... what does amazon have to say, I wonder..

[celery 8]

I've yet to see any valid reasons why people don't want Steamworks integration besides that they don't want to use Steam.

The majority of this community doesn't want Bohemia's games to be Steam only. Why do you want to force people to buy a license bound to a single user in one service instead of a redistributable copy? I have yet to see a single valid reason for that, or any of this Steamworks nonsense.

Like someone said in the other thread, it gives YOU nothing. It gives Valve a monopoly over a game at your expense, and monopolies are always bad for the end user, so I really have no idea why you would want it. Even if you want to pay the same (or bigger) price for a digital download as you would for a physical copy, you really lack some basic empathy if you want to shove it down others' throats.

[Sergeantshizzle 10]

+1 for steam integration.

Steam worked wonders for every other game that chose to integrate its' MP with it. It's sheer madness for anyone to think that this would not do the same for ArmA 3.

---------- Post added at 09:28 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:24 PM ----------

The majority of this community doesn't want Bohemia's games to be Steam only. Why do you want to force people to buy a license bound to a single user in one service instead of a redistributable copy? I have yet to see a single valid reason for that, or any of this Steamworks nonsense.

Like someone said in the other thread, it gives YOU nothing. It gives Valve a monopoly over a game at your expense, and monopolies are always bad for the end user, so I really have no idea why you would want it. Even if you want to pay the same (or bigger) price for a digital download as you would for a physical copy, you really lack some basic empathy if you want to shove it down others' throats.

You're portraying Valve in the same light as Activision by saying that, and it's completely inaccurate. People are suggesting steam integration for the simple reason that most of the userbase has it anyway, and it will vastly improve ArmA's server functionality, people are more than happy to have something shoved down their throats if it's got a good taste. (horrific imagery)

[Zipper5 74]

Can you easily refund a game on Steam after it's been released?

No, you can't. Not without lots persuasion, at least, and even then they'll only usually refund you if the game in question is known to have serious issues & if they're feeling "generous". It's something you agree to when you buy the game there, or if you buy a retail Steamworks-based hardcopy.

It is completely understandable for that to be the main reason people don't want Steam integration. I know it pisses me off to no end that I bought Call of Duty: Black Ops for $60, which is still non-functioning this far on since its release, and I can't refund it because I bought it on Steam.

Steamworks doesn't bring enough to the table in many peoples' eyes to accept such a practice. Don't take this as if I dislike Steam, however. I buy mostly every game I want these days off of it, apart from BIS'. For them, I go to Sprocket.

[celery 8]

You're portraying Valve in the same light as Activision by saying that, and it's completely inaccurate. People are suggesting steam integration for the simple reason that most of the userbase has it anyway, and it will vastly improve ArmA's server functionality, people are more than happy to have something shoved down their throats if it's got a good taste. (horrific imagery)

Arma 2 is already in Steam. The Steam-exclusive users who wanted to buy it have already done so. That's in addition to the vast amount of customers who bought Arma 2 elsewhere, such as a local store, an online store, or non-Steam digital vendors. I'm not a mathematician but with my common sense Bohemia will only lose customers with a Steamworks deal. Good multiplayer browsers are not a Valve secret.

And I can't emphasize enough: Valve is trampling consumer rights with its no refund policies, and its pricing is greedy as hell.

[enad 11]

Your thoughts on Valve are so wrong, and it seems your major problem with Steam is that you can't return the game or give away the game, I doubt there's much of a chance for a long time OFP/ArmA fan like you to want to return your game so I don't see how that's such a problem.

I don't agree that every Steamworks feature would be good for ArmA 3, but nothing would hurt it, and the server brower would significantly improve ArmA 3's MP functionality. No doubt about it.

I'll will give one thing I really don't like about Steam, which is connected with the ArmA series, you can't choose where to install, so from what I've heard, getting Combined Ops is a pain. What I would do is buy the main game on Steam, then the rest on sprocket so I can install it easily into my ArmA 2 folder and have combined ops working just like that.

Maybe someone can enlighten me and tell that Combined Ops isn't a pain to get working, atleast I heard mods were difficult to get working with Combined Ops.

[celery 8]

Your thoughts on Valve are so wrong, and it seems your major problem with Steam is that you can't return the game or give away the game, I doubt there's much of a chance for a long time OFP/ArmA fan like you to want to return your game so I don't see how that's such a problem.

My thoughts on Valve are very right indeed because you couldn't even counter them with arguments of your own.

My other major problem is Steam's pricing policy that is both unequal (US vs. UK vs. different EU country tiers) and which makes the whole idea of digital distribution totally pointless. The games (=licenses to games) are usually sold at prices far higher than non-Steamworks physical copies that you have every right to sell or give away.

One scenario where I can imagine wanting to get rid of my Arma 3 is a gold or ultimate release that contains the game and expansions cheaper than their total worth, in which case I'll sell the original. With Steam I would have to buy everything individually because in most cases the games that I already own are not given to me even as a gift option, meaning I will have paid for something that I never got.

[enad 11]

I didn't have to try to counter your arguements because you're arguments are ignorant, you think Valve is like Microsoft or something. I'm not going to argue about Valve being good or bad.

About the pricing, the good thing about Steamworks, is you can go and buy the physical copy for less than you would on Steam, but have all the benefits you get from Steamworks.

[celery 8]

I didn't have to try to counter your arguements because you're arguments are ignorant, you think Valve is like Microsoft or something. I'm not going to argue about Valve being good or bad.

Your all rhetoric, zero substance reply to the matter is the greatest argument for my cause. You're the only one drawing other companies and moral extremes to the discussion, whereas I said how Valve/Steam conducts its business (you can't deny it) and what effects it has (you can't deny them).

About the pricing, the good thing about Steamworks, is you can go and buy the physical copy for less than you would on Steam, but have all the benefits you get from Steamworks.

I'm still unclear about the benefits. Is a soulbound non-refundable license a benefit? I don't use Steam features, I just want to play the game and be able to cash it in afterwards, because I'm not a rich boy. Should I really be that happy to give up my rights as a consumer only to get cosmetic features that I never really wanted in the first place? Why is it a benefit that the box that contained my license becomes useless garbage the moment the key is entered into Steam? Why can't the game just be cheaper on Steam? Afterall, there are no middle hands and it's only a data transfer.

[enad 11]

Your all rhetoric, zero substance reply to the matter is the greatest argument for my cause. You're the only one drawing other companies and moral extremes to the discussion, whereas I said how Valve/Steam conducts its business (you can't deny it) and what effects it has (you can't deny them).

I'm still unclear about the benefits. Is a soulbound non-refundable license a benefit? I don't use Steam features, I just want to play the game and be able to cash it in afterwards, because I'm not a rich boy. Should I really be that happy to give up my rights as a consumer only to get cosmetic features that I never really wanted in the first place? Why is it a benefit that the box that contained my license becomes useless garbage the moment the key is entered into Steam? Why can't the game just be cheaper on Steam? Afterall, there are no middle hands and it's only a data transfer.

All benefits have been listed in the OP and further by Big Dawg KS. I don't feel like restating them for you.

Also, I'm pretty sure you can return physical copys of Steamworks games, they just deactivate your copy. You'd have to contact Valve though.

[gossamersolid 155]

As much as I'd not like to see ArmA III a Steam-only release, I do like the steamworks features like joining via a friend's list.

I try to agree with Celery when I can as we usually share the same opinion, but I'm going to have to disagree with your argument this time. Having the game on steam doesn't really "prevent" reselling the game as almost nobody will take back PC games regardless of the medium these days because most games require a unique cd key anyways.

[pathetic_berserker 4]

No to steamworks, completely unnecessary.

And why the focus on steam works. Its not like it is the only answer to acquiring, friends lists, chat rooms etc.

[Big Dawg KS 6]

You're the only one drawing other companies and moral extremes to the discussion, whereas I said how Valve/Steam conducts its business (you can't deny it) and what effects it has (you can't deny them).

Celery, your arguments are basically that Valve is trying to screw every one of its customers. It's simply not true. They take an alternative approach to the concept of ownership. To be honest, I don't agree with your belief about Valve violating "basic consumer rights" or whatever you called them. While in theory, Valve has more control over your use of the games you have purchased through Steam, it all boils down to practice. And as someone who owns many products on Steam, and who knows many others who use Steam, not once have I ever witnessed an incident where Valve has restricted someone's ownership for no reason (I do acknowledge that Vavle can and probably will restrict you if you misbehave, but IMO that's good). I mean if people stressed out about all the reasons why Valve could potentially screw them (and if they indeed screwed everyone) then nobody would use Steam or buy games with Steamworks.

And for the record, Steamworks makes for a much better DRM than typical dedicated DRM solutions that just restrict your installations.

Edited May 23, 2011 by Big Dawg KS

[enad 11]

Once again Big Dawg KS sums it up. Before just saying "No steam sucks I hate it!!1"

Think about how much the server browser would enhance ArmA 3's Multiplayer experience. It would make it sooo much easier and it would actually work 99% of the time.