ArmA 3 on Steamworks?

[StroggCmd 10]

Definitely buying on steam; owning it on steam doesn't prevent anyone from modding it via means other than the workshop. This is why most of the Elder Scrolls and Fallout players (who use mods) use the Nexus sites and their mod loader instead of the workshop, because it is very poorly laid out and generally a pain to use.

[celery 8]

Fandom? So now we have fanboism for delivery methods of getting games? Thats like accusing someone of fanboism for picking one pizza delivery service over another -pretty sure people are just happy to get an intact tasty pizza :)

The fact that you yourself have bought 200 (!?!) games from them would firmly put you in a "fanboi" category far more than someone who merely stated "Ive never had a problem there". Thats like going to the same restaraunt everyday, but bitching about this or that and then stating "Hey, Im no regular here!!" :rolleyes:

I have remained a Steam customer solely because I find good deals there on a per-game basis and I need Steam to run those games. Contrast that with someone who thinks Steam deserves every last penny it can squeeze from its customers by trampling on their consumer rights because he's bought games from Steam and they've worked okay.

Having used Steam for x years and having had very few problems is a very poor validator for outright fandom where Steam-exclusivity can only be seen in a positive light. The fact that I've used Steam for x years and have had very few problems and I'm still not supporting Steam's supposed right to put its own gain ahead of everything else is sort of making the point here: it doesn't mean anything, or at most it means that some people simply don't care about problems that don't directly concern them and that their loyalty is gained simply by not failing utterly at what's expected of you.

So was your point that since I'm a big Steam customer, I should automatically support this Steam exclusivity endeavor?

Edited March 1, 2013 by Celery

[StroggCmd 10]

I don't think you're entirely getting my point DM.

What I would want BIS to do, is to give a list of all content & features they will implement in the final game, so customers are aware of what they will be getting in the end.

Hypothetically speaking, BIS could sell this alpha, fix a bug or 2, add 1 weapon and 1 vehicle in the upcoming months and then call the game golden. Customers would be really disappointed and feel deceived, wouldn't they?

The good decision BIS made is offering the game at a nicely reduced price. 25 EUR to buy yourself into this is a nice gesture, so I haven't made up my decision yet, but if I had to pay 50 for an alpha with promises, that would be too much.

BI seems like a pretty reliable developer, and if you live in the UK, laws there allow you to get your money back from steam within 24 hours with no justification (of course you'll lose the game in the process) :)

[dm 9]

I don't think you're entirely getting my point DM.

What I would want BIS to do, is to give a list of all content & features they will implement in the final game, so customers are aware of what they will be getting in the end.

Hypothetically speaking, BIS could sell this alpha, fix a bug or 2, add 1 weapon and 1 vehicle in the upcoming months and then call the game golden. Customers would be really disappointed and feel deceived, wouldn't they?

The good decision BIS made is offering the game at a nicely reduced price. 25 EUR to buy yourself into this is a nice gesture, so I haven't made up my decision yet, but if I had to pay 50 for an alpha with promises, that would be too much.

Ok, I see where you're coming from now.

I think people would feel more decieved if BI wrote a huge long list of things they wanted to implement by the time the game was due to go gold, but then couldnt achieve those things because of whatever reason.

There is always an element of risk with product development, things are harder to do than you estimated, unforseen problems occur (2 devs ending up in jail is prime example of that) etc etc. There is no such thing as "these things will be in the software by date x". It is just the way of things in software development. You can have "These things will be in the software by an undetermined date" or "These things may be in the software by date x". And BI doesnt want to go down the "may" route for the reason you give - too much chance of dissapointment.

I think having an alpha where you can provide feedback and bug reports to have a much higher chance to get things fixed by the time it goes gold is a pretty good middle ground.

[stk2008 14]

The thing with BIS is years after ARMA3 release we will be seeing patches and more functions added like we did with ARMA 1 and even more so with ARMA2 so even if its not in the ALPHA or BETA I am sure sooner or later it will be :)

I have like I keep saying been with BIS since day one and I am so impressed with there after sales support (patches) they deserve a bleeding medal they really do.

So yeah you lot wait and see I know I am right years from now there will be beta after beta with more functions added,models,missions etc etc

[waxman 5]

How so? I said I'd just bought max payne, and that I had to jump through hoops? Which I did.

---------- Post added at 02:55 ---------- Previous post was at 02:54 ----------

What? They took 40$ out of my account. Else, they wouldn't have admitted it and gave me the 40$ back? It's very simple. They, took 40$... from me... the 40$ wasn't there's to take. But ofcourse only after I caught the issue... luckily.

Would you like a copy of my bank statements? :rolleyes: (not!)

So you bought a game for $40 and then saw it on your statement and dont want to pay for it???

I asked for a little more information than just they took some money, double charges (if this is what occured still have no idea tbh.) happen regularly through out the world and there are plenty of processes to resolve them with out having to accuse the company of theft or fraud. As far as I can tell you have angry persecuted person syndrome and are looking for any thing in the slightest and then overreacting.

Or you could clarify your statement regarding the taking of the $40 and say what actually was wrong with it.

[dunedain 48]

Once I got charged twice for a 200€ softair replica of the Galil bought from a Polish website... Took them a whole month to reimburse me. Being a student at the time it was a pretty tricky situation. Things like that happens, when you trust online services with your credit card, but are still pretty rare and usually have a happy ending.

No idea what he was going on about the 90s though, pretty sure the definition hasn't changed in the last 20 years.

You said that I shouldn't say "Steam exclusivity" because people understood it the wrong way as you could only get it from the Steam store. By "stuck in the 90's" I meant that some people here have no clue how the digital market and Steam works. It wasn't meant to be understood literally. Not obvious enough I guess... :p

Edited March 1, 2013 by dunedain

[froggyluv 2130]

I have remained a Steam customer solely because I find good deals there on a per-game basis and I need Steam to run those games. Contrast that with someone who thinks Steam deserves every last penny it can squeeze from its customers by trampling on their consumer rights because he's bought games from Steam and they've worked okay.

Having used Steam for x years and having had very few problems is a very poor validator for outright fandom where Steam-exclusivity can only be seen in a positive light. The fact that I've used Steam for x years and have had very few problems and I'm still not supporting Steam's supposed right to put its own gain ahead of everything else is sort of making the point here: it doesn't mean anything, or at most it means that some people simply don't care about problems that don't directly concern them and that their loyalty is gained simply by not failing utterly at what's expected of you.

So was your point that since I'm a big Steam customer, I should automatically support this Steam exclusivity endeavor?

Where your mistaken is that people (as you quoted) are merely saying "Steam, yeah ok, never had a problem with it" for some sort of fanatical crazed "Steam F*ck yeah -say no to all other distributions!!" thereby your need to insinuate or flat out call them fanbois. The level of histrionics here is pretty humorous if not a bit startling. I've been PC gaming since I was 9 years old -thats 33 years, and I remember the days of just reading about an upcoming title in Computer Gaming World, driving an hour to a rare PC gaming shop -only to be told its coming in a month or two. I've seen it all and like it or not -this is the state of PC gaming today. I own all Arma's thru Sprocket/DVD and Steam and for a multitude of reasons -use the Steam version with zero noticed difference or loss.

The amount of self entitled "this is what I expect/demand BI!!!!", the amount of pseudo legalese outrage -all over a $30 product -I've seen far less nitpicking demands on financial investment deals dealing in the tens of thousands -is something again I find both funny and a little sad.

Edited March 1, 2013 by froggyluv

[Jack2323 10]

I thought I should throw my two cents worth in on this concern. I know it seems like a good idea to a lot of you gamers out there, but it is not. I suspect most of you are younger than I am by quite a bit. You have grown up in this new ultra hype marketing environment where 'trends and fashions' (and gadgets ) are your mechanism to describe who and what you are all about. And that's just great. But! As time goes by and you start to grow up and mommy and daddy stop wiping your ass for you, you will start to develop an understanding of personal responsibility; and a resentment of outside influences trying to abscond with your personal choices and freedoms.

From this time on, every time you want to play "your" ARMA3 game you will have to ask permission. STEAM now controls how you play ARMA3, when you play ARMA3, how and when ARMA3 is updated, and if you even have the right to play ARMA3. Children are used to restrictions like this. I am an adult and resent the fact that someone has any say in how I conduct my personal affairs. I am sorry to see this newest generation give up their rights (how ever small) so thoughtlessly. I will not. Nor will I buy 'STEAMED' ARMA3.

[vegeta897 13]

I thought I should throw my two cents worth in on this concern. I know it seems like a good idea to a lot of you gamers out there, but it is not. I suspect most of you are younger than I am by quite a bit. You have grown up in this new ultra hype marketing environment where 'trends and fashions' (and gadgets ) are your mechanism to describe who and what you are all about. And that's just great. But! As time goes by and you start to grow up and mommy and daddy stop wiping your ass for you, you will start to develop an understanding of personal responsibility; and a resentment of outside influences trying to abscond with your personal choices and freedoms.

From this time on, every time you want to play "your" ARMA3 game you will have to ask permission. STEAM now controls how you play ARMA3, when you play ARMA3, how and when ARMA3 is updated, and if you even have the right to play ARMA3. Children are used to restrictions like this. I am an adult and resent the fact that someone has any say in how I conduct my personal affairs. I am sorry to see this newest generation give up their rights (how ever small) so thoughtlessly. I will not. Nor will I buy 'STEAMED' ARMA3.

Good riddance.

Yes, we're all children for accepting the fact that Steam is a good distribution solution for BIS's new game. Clearly only someone of your age and vast experience knows more what he's talking about than any of us, especially on the topic of video game freedoms. Who told you that having a game on Steam is giving up your rights? Consumers still have their rights. The advantages in security brought by Steam far outweigh this paranoid notion you have that Steam is suddenly going to decide to take your games away for no reason. Even if that were to happen, you as a consumer still have your rights to play the game, and would be able to sue Valve if they can't hold up their end of the bargain (the purchase you made)

I don't know why people think DRM = giving up all control. You still have consumer rights. When you purchase a product, it needs to function as advertised.

[waxman 5]

I thought I should throw my two cents worth in on this concern. I know it seems like a good idea to a lot of you gamers out there, but it is not. I suspect most of you are younger than I am by quite a bit. You have grown up in this new ultra hype marketing environment where 'trends and fashions' (and gadgets ) are your mechanism to describe who and what you are all about. And that's just great. But! As time goes by and you start to grow up and mommy and daddy stop wiping your ass for you, you will start to develop an understanding of personal responsibility; and a resentment of outside influences trying to abscond with your personal choices and freedoms.

From this time on, every time you want to play "your" ARMA3 game you will have to ask permission. STEAM now controls how you play ARMA3, when you play ARMA3, how and when ARMA3 is updated, and if you even have the right to play ARMA3. Children are used to restrictions like this. I am an adult and resent the fact that someone has any say in how I conduct my personal affairs. I am sorry to see this newest generation give up their rights (how ever small) so thoughtlessly. I will not. Nor will I buy 'STEAMED' ARMA3.

Yes allways on DRM does inhibit your personal freedoms, I my self dislike it. However I concede that copy protection is desirable particularly for games that are in the public eye, and to be honest dial home DRM unfortunately works very well both directly (makes unauthorised copy's harder to use) and emotionally (those who make and market products feel that they are protecting them selves).

With that said there are of course a great many ways of implementing it and as of right now steam is most certainly one of the least intrusive and reliable around (ubi soft not looking at you), that is with out allowing for the numerous other benefits it does provide to the consumer and developer both.

While in an ideal world we would have products available with a range of copy protections, delivery methods, payment options and even play styles realistically we all have to admit that the boundary's need to get drawn some where, in ARMA 2 we had battleeye in ARMA 3 we will have steam. We gain out of this as much as we loose steam patching / updating service is better than pretty much any thing else out there, and steam workshop while still quite new is working out very well and I am personally grateful to have an integrated mod management and delivery tool that is 100% accessible to every other person who is also playing, no technical knowledge requirements will separate the haves from the have nots.

PS. while I am willing to compromise i will think of all those out there are who are not, those that are looking in through the window and the warm happy cheer inside while they choose to stand in the cold while the door is invitingly open.

Edited March 1, 2013 by WaxMan

[jblackrupert 14]

Valve isn't a corporation. It's a private company. It doesn't have any shareholders pushing behind for more dividends, unlike EA or Ubisoft. Their goal is still to ensure the perennity of their company, however they have much more freedom in the way they want to do it even if it means lesser profits.

EA was the same once upon a time and then Trip Hawkins decided to sell and move on.

Gabe Newell and friends could decide to cash out at anytime for many reasons.

[Iroquois Pliskin 0]

EA was the same once upon a time and then Trip Hawkins decided to sell and move on.

Gabe Newell and friends could decide to cash out at anytime for many reasons.

Many things could happen anytime - lots of asteroids past Mars' orbit & in the Kuiper belt, and new ones are always being thrown into the inner Solar system. Just sayin'.

I just love this thread, hope it stays after March 5th.

[vegeta897 13]

EA was the same once upon a time and then Trip Hawkins decided to sell and move on.

Gabe Newell and friends could decide to cash out at anytime for many reasons.

And we may all eventually die in a global nuclear war.

The point is that hasn't happened yet, and there's no indication that it will any time soon.

[Winfernal 2]

Many things could happen anytime - lots of asteroids past Mars' orbit & in the Kuiper belt, and new ones are always being thrown into the inner Solar system. Just sayin'.

I just love this thread, hope it stays after March 5th.

And so do i.

Oh well, if some people are going to skip A3 because of it being Steam exclusive... then your support to Bohemia is questionable. :)

[jblackrupert 14]

it seems some people here are still stuck in the 90's....

Ya, buying games in those days really sucked.

I mean come on now, could you imagine dropping one of these games on your toe walking out the door. Eeek!

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Lords-of-Power-Amiga-PC-Game-Boxed-Red-Baron-Silent-Service-Rail-Tycoon-General-/150989191407?pt=Video_Games_Games&hash=item2327a838ef

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Ultima-Underworld-Stygian-Abyss-Underworld-II-Labyrinth-of-Worlds-w-Clue-Books-/281070073676?pt=Video_Games_Games&hash=item417114f74c

http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEC-PC-9801-PC98-ULTIMA-UNDERWORLD-Sword-Trinket-3-5-Floppy-Japan-/390551005389?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item5aeea768cd

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Ultima-V-5-Fantasy-RPG-Computer-Game-Cloth-Map-/400424172236?pt=Video_Games_Games&hash=item5d3b23facc

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Falcon-4-0-PC-Game-Microprose-Box-Only-1st-edition-/330881422952?pt=Video_Games_Games&hash=item4d0a11d668

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Falcon-4-0-PC-Game-Microprose-Box-Only-1st-edition-/330881422952?pt=Video_Games_Games&hash=item4d0a11d668

http://www.ebay.com/itm/ULTRA-RARE-Silent-Service-II-100-Complete-Map-Sticker-Reg-Card-PC-3-5-Disks-/271163493032?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3f229a8aa8

These are not "Special Editions" BTW.

Most games came like this. Full 100+ page manuals, paper/Cloth maps. Keyboard overlays, Lead characters, Novels

Edited March 1, 2013 by jblackrupert

[metalcraze 290]

Who told you that having a game on Steam is giving up your rights? Consumers still have their rights.

Try reading Steam's EULA. You have no rights. They can block your account for whatever reason and there's nothing you will be able to do about it. You are just a guest in Steam.

The advantages in security brought by Steam far outweigh this paranoid notion you have that Steam is suddenly going to decide to take your games away for no reason.

Yes let's forget the last year's hacking of Steam when hackers stole credit card and account info. Coupled with Steam being known for gathering info about your PC without you knowing it - that's great security over having setup.exe on your PC and no additional software known to be compromised every year.

Even if that were to happen, you as a consumer still have your rights to play the game, and would be able to sue Valve if they can't hold up their end of the bargain (the purchase you made)

I don't know why people think DRM = giving up all control. You still have consumer rights. When you purchase a product, it needs to function as advertised.

Seriously - read Steam's EULA. It leaves you NO rights. According to it only Valve and Bohemia will have rights when it comes to ArmA3.

Steam is known for fully blocking accounts and stopping you from accessing every single game you paid for when there was something as small as an issue with payment clearance on bank's side.

"Consumer rights" lol

[Iroquois Pliskin 0]

These are not "Special Editions" BTW.

Most games came like this. Full 100+ page manuals, paper/Cloth maps. Keyboard overlays, Lead characters, Novels

Cute. You just have to think a little why that was the case back then: the computer gaming market was non-existent and to spur interest in the general public, such a marketing ploy was introduced, which did serve very well for quite a while.

[Winfernal 2]

Try reading Steam's EULA. You have no rights. They can block your account for whatever reason and there's nothing you will be able to do about it. You are just a guest in Steam.

Yes let's forget the last year's hacking of Steam when hackers stole credit card and account info. Coupled with Steam being known for gathering info about your PC without you knowing it - that's great security over having setup.exe on your PC and no additional software known to be compromised every year.

Seriously - read Steam's EULA. It leaves you NO rights. According to it only Valve and Bohemia will have rights when it comes to ArmA3. You are just renting the game.

Are you going to give up on Bohemia and ArmA 3 because of your opinion and paranoia about Steam?

Yes. Valve is going to close all our accounts one day, and steal our games.

Just get on with the times. Digital sales are here to stay. And it's better for the customer and developer in MANY ways.

Edited March 1, 2013 by Winfernal

[jblackrupert 14]

Cute. You just have to think a little why that was the case back then: the computer gaming market was non-existent and to spur interest in the general public, such a marketing ploy was introduced, which did serve very well for quite a while.

Guess it had nothing to do with the fact that back then the gaming industry was controlled by the artists themselves and not suits who only see $$$.

EA is short for Electronic Arts which came from the term "Electronic artists".....

[W0lle 1042]

Many things could happen anytime - lots of asteroids past Mars' orbit & in the Kuiper belt, and new ones are always being thrown into the inner Solar system. Just sayin'.

I just love this thread, hope it stays after March 5th.

Negative, this thread ends now. We have said like 3 times now that the discussion about Steam pro and cons must be taken to the Offtopic forum.

And honestly, I fail to see what else should be discussed here now. It's all said and everyone just running in circles.

"Steam is good, just use it" - "Steam takes my consumer rights!" - "Steam is good, just use it, really!"

Enough of that now. :)