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ArmA 3 on Steamworks?

Will you buy Arma 3 (Steam exclusive)  

433 members have voted

  1. 1. Will you buy Arma 3 (Steam exclusive)

    • Yes
      538
    • No
      89


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The concerns I see here have nothing to do with the achievements themselves or "the crowd" but more to do with what they are. No matter "the crowd", some people will want to complete achievements. Hell, I know I will if they're in. As with Placebo, I might not be too interested in the MP ones, but if there's an SP achievement that I can get, I will certainly try it.

Now here is the thing, something as simple as "started up the game", ruins nobody's fun, nobody should generally have the problem with it. Those who do, have that kind of problem because it's just lazy on the developers part.

What I see as a general issue people have with achievements are the achievements in the style of "Kill 500 AI in coop multiplayer", which is encouraging a certain kind of behavior from those interested in completing it. "Kill 500 players in PVP" on the other hand, has no effect on anyone as killing people in PVP is what you do, it's just a matter of time.

Basically, from what I can see, achievements as themselves are not the problem, but the behavior of individual ones might be what some here are worried about.

This is easily solved with good achievements. Coop achievements can be in style of "Complete mission X without turning off the alarms", etc. Something to make the mission a challenge and that the whole team has to agree on beforehand and work on it. SP achievements, whatever they are, are kind of irrelevant in quality as they would not be necessary to anyone who dislikes them. And I can't speak for PVP ones, but I'm sure the PVP-ers have their own idea what a good and bad PVP achievement is.

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If the alpha includes achievements then there's a very simple system for feedback if it includes achievements that may possible encourage negative MP playing styles :)

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Well, if there is a certain game mode in A3 where achievements would make sense I see no problem. Or achievements for various missions/quests completed in campaign, like in Skyrim. That could actually give even more motivation to replay campaign to make different decisions in order to get other achievements. Although, most of us already did that in previous tittles just to see what happens.

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Why? Steamworks doesn't mean VAC exclusive.

They mentioned in the report about VAC and being with steam will be able to stop things like piracy.

_____

As long as achievements don't unlock weapons or weapon skins, and sticks to singleplayer I'm fine with it. (Not to mention VAC is confirmed with DayZ with a recent dev interview on youtube).

Edited by VIPER[CWW]

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This poll is pure bullpoo. I'm willing to be my bottom dollar that if there was a poll asking "Would you buy ArmA 3 if it's not Steam exclusive" and it would be 100% Yes so in reality this poll is showing BI is going to lose 12% of their consumers and not 88% want Steam. The poll options are too vague and the "yes" doesn't take into account those who dislike Steam but are willing to bear the burder just to play ArmA 3. Try asking the question "Would you want ArmA 3 to be Steam exclusive or not?" or atleast give more options.

*edited to change the statistics from 30% to 12%; 70% to 88% and to remove offensive language

Edited by JeffersPang

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Yes, but how exactly this hinders your game experience?

I am already using Steam, having only few games on my account, but i can't really say that using Steam was a bad experience (except for the Walking Dead saves problem i mentioned earlier, but i cant say it was caused by Steam, more probably by the game update, or by myself making some mistake when using the Steam Cloud Sync).

Limited choice makes people who would normally have no problems at all because they use their preferred distribution method suddenly have problems of one kind or another because they're forced to use a distributor that they might not prefer at all. Any problem that people might ever have with Steam is potentially among those problems, be it from a technical, logistical or consumer rights standpoint.

First, i do not aprove of selling game you played, it just feels wrong, but thats only my opinion which differs from your opinion, meaning its only a matter of opinion, so we cant use it as a general reason in this discussion.

Giving away is another thing, there i tend to agree with you, yet not completely as i am still little reluctant to think it is perfectly ok to buy game, play it till the end, and then denying more business to the devs by just giving it away - it probably sounds too harsh, but if i would have to use an example: imagine you go to movies, you pay for the ticket, you watch the movie, and then you want to give the ticket to another person so he can also watch the movie. Thats not how this business works, and in my opinion it doesn't even feel right, if you want to give something to another person, nothing prevents you from buying extra ticket just for him.

But this is for different discussion.

Since it's clear that you wouldn't sell anything if it would mean less profits to its maker, let's just agree to disagree on that point. But do you not see a problem at all in Steam taking away your whole game collection if it wants to, for example if you say something on the Steam forums that they don't like, or you gift a game to a friend who just happens to live in a region where that game is actually more expensive? Origin has been known to do exactly that, and Steam doing the same isn't unheard of.

First of all, i am not speaking here for BI, i dont have a mandate for such thing nor do i seek it, i only voice my own personal opinions.

Secondly, if somebody is unable to setup ones computer properly, then he clearly is incompetent of such thing, no shame in that.

When somebody wants to drive a car, he must first learn how to drive a car, and if he doesn't want to learn, or he is unable to do so (be it for lack of time, or just because its difficult for that person), he still has the option to take a taxi (ie. let other people do it for him). Would you blame a company, that makes cars, for your inability to drive a car?

I admit it may not be relevant enough as an argument, but the only people i know of having problems with Steam, are the people who are incompetent to maintain their computer (note: "incompetent" is not a dirty word :))

a) Person plays a game without Steam, and everything is okay.

b) The same person plays the same game on Steam, and the game is slow or Steam crashes or the PC crashes or the internet connection dies and Steam then refuses to let him play.

Are you absolutely positive that Steam isn't causing any of the problems in case b? Case b will happen, and it will happen a lot more often because everyone has to use Steam. Calling those people incompetent and suggesting them to play on consoles doesn't make that fact go away. Do you see the problem?

Let's take Skyrim for example, there is the Steam Workshop (having 13893 entries), and then there is the Skyrim Nexus (having 23393 entries), so i wouldnt bet on Steam Workshop becoming the main hub for mods (it might, but... maybe not - especially if ppl find its user interface unfriendly as you mentioned).

And even if the Workshop becomes the main hub, how is it worse than any other repository? It's the internet, if some ppl think there are no rules, their actions are not limited to one website, or Steam Workshop, it happens everywhere.

The problem in Skyrim's case is that authors who don't want their stuff to go on Steam Workshop constantly have their content stolen and uploaded onto the Steam Workshop, and correcting that takes unreasonable amounts of effort and time. The result has been that talented mod makers have left the modding community.

Armaholic is moderated by some of the community's most dedicated, kind and smart people, and the basic assumption is that the author of the content decides how that content is used. In other words, people who use content made by other people are required to ask for permission from the original author and present proof to an Armaholic admin if some situation rises. If content is handled disrespectfully or is falsely claimed to be made by someone else, the admins will react fast and efficiently. None of that is the case on Steam Workshop.

I cant agree - if you consider the reasons mentioned on bistudio.com, you are basically saying that the consumer would be more happy with game release significantly delayed, or maybe even no game at all, instead of releasing the game as Steam-exclusive.

Some people don't want to be forced to use Steam = they have a problem with it = there is, or at least should be a problem.

Besides, the whole story about development being so much faster if it's Steam-exclusive is suspect in itself. The decision could just as well be a calculated optimization of profit when comparing Steam's share of the income for exclusive and non-exclusive games.

From what i've seen, not all, but majority of those who complain about Steam, are just being childish or afraid of something they don't know, without valid reason.

You've been all eyes and ears in this thread, haven't you? :sarcasm:

Yep I'm the same, I would love to see full stat logging/tracking in all Arma games along with achievements, I want to know how many bullets I fired, how accurate my shooting is, which weapons I use the best, where I hit on the enemy, etc. etc. etc.

It all becomes meaningless after the first user-made mission with slightly different mechanics is released. How do you compare stats between a coop mission with specific roles and a deathmatch with unlimited ammo (or even a shooting range mission with non-live targets), much less pool them under one general statistic? So when you play a game mode that requires you to behave in a way that might make your stats look "worse", how do you think it will affect some of the players? And what about missions specifically designed for stat and achievement farming?

Surely then it will help you weed out those kinds of people and you won't need to play MP with them? They're not the sort of people who join squads, play on private servers etc which is what you'd be doing considering how serious you are about the game and the experience you have with it when playing.

Introduce stats and achievements that make some people go derp with no balancing positive effects on other people -> suggest that people don't play public games. Hooray for Arma 3 MP! :Oo:

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This poll is pure bullshit. I'm willing to be my bottom dollar that if there was a poll asking "Would you buy ArmA 3 if it's not Steam exclusive" and it would be 100% Yes so in reality this poll is showing BI is going to lose 30% of their consumers and not 70% want Steam. The poll options are too vague and the "yes" doesn't take into account those who dislike Steam but are willing to bear the burder just to play ArmA 3. Try asking the question "Would you want ArmA 3 to be Steam exclusive or not?" or atleast give more options

You mean "lose" 12% of it's customer base? And once again since when do the BI forums represent an accurate estimate of BI actual or potential customer base?

Furthermore, all discussions regarding the desire or lack of BI integrating steamworks into A3 are irrelevant at this point. Focus on discussing steam features that would benefit A3.

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This poll is pure bullshit. I'm willing to be my bottom dollar that if there was a poll asking "Would you buy ArmA 3 if it's not Steam exclusive" and it would be 100% Yes so in reality this poll is showing BI is going to lose 30% of their consumers and not 70% want Steam. The poll options are too vague and the "yes" doesn't take into account those who dislike Steam but are willing to bear the burder just to play ArmA 3. Try asking the question "Would you want ArmA 3 to be Steam exclusive or not?" or atleast give more options

Mind your language please.

Besides, I can't say you're right. You'd see people voting no even if Steam wasn't an issue. Some are "disgusted" by the setting it's placed in and whatnot else. The question is simple and posed in the poll stands on it's own merits, will you buy the game. It includes the setting issue, it includes the Steam debate and any past concerns people might have with it.

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I'm sorry, last I checked was last night and it didn't register to me that it changed. I'm going to edit my post to correct my mistakes but my point stands. Why would BI risk losing 12% of their consumer base? I've never heard anyone say "I'm not going to buy this game because it's not on Steam". Also I assumed that BI forums is pretty much as accurate as we can get when trying to expose ourselves to ArmA 3 consumer base (it's not like I'm asking on Stormfront's forums right?). If you have a suggestion for a better place to do a poll on BI's consumers, please enlighten me.

May I ask why discussing SteamWork is irrelevant here? I thought that this thread is for discussion of both Steamworks and Steam? I contribute to the ArmA addons community and when I feel that my rights will be infringed upon, I have the god damn rights to voice my concerns. It's funny how many non-addon makers come lashing out at us over addon authors rights, it's easy for them because they have nothing to lose and much to gain.

@Sniperwolf

Yup you're right, but when a vague question is polled on a thread exclusively discussing Steamwork, anyone could be easily misled into thinking that the sole issue in question is to Steam it or not. This is evident in previous pages when pro-Steam guys kept referring to the poll.

Edited by JeffersPang

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Besides, I can't say you're right. You'd see people voting no even if Steam wasn't an issue. Some are "disgusted" by the setting it's placed in and whatnot else. The question is simple and posed in the poll stands on it's own merits, will you buy the game. It includes the setting issue, it includes the Steam debate and any past concerns people might have with it.

The following poll options would be more telling:

  • Yes
  • Yes, but I don't like the Steam-exclusive aspect
  • Haven't decided yet
  • No, but I might consider a discount deal
  • No

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@TonyGrunt & @zoog

Thank you for your replies to the questions I asked, they were very helpful.:)

___

I just hope everything falls into place o.k. Then most people will feel happy, I guess..;)

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Steam Exclusive means I just don't buy 8 Copies like I currently have for Arma 2 cant run 8 Computers off 1 steam account on a closed lan....

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Hello, I do not buy Arma3. I do not want to be blackmailed, install a program which me spied. Why do you need it at once, all these years, it went so. Thank you that I here could desist air . Sorry for my english. I can live with Arma2

Greez Hotze

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BI is going to lose 12% of their consumers

Ok ok ok...

This poll is BS, but not for the reason you state.

Some proper math:

We know that, prior to the DayZ sale-splosion, Arma2 had sold at least half a million copies.

We know that there are ~56,000 users registered on this forum.

We know that of those ~56,000, only ~4,600 are considered "active" (exactly what this means, I'm not sure, gonna assume it means "has posted in the last month" or so)

Of those ~4,600 active users, only ~400 have voted in the poll.

So, of the 500,000 [known] Arma "customers", 10% are registered to the forums. Of that 10%, only 10% are active, and of that active 1% (I'm gonna take the MASSIVE assumption that all 4,600 active users have seen this thread) only 10% have bothered to vote in the poll. Of that 0.1% of total customers who voted, only 10% "wont" buy A3 because of steam...

So really, if this poll is indicative of anything BI is gonna lose like 0.0001% of its total customer base.

And, Like I already said, if the MW2 boycott is anything to go by, most people will eventually give in and buy the game anyway...

Also, that is not even considering the mass influx of players from DayZ and the PR thats generating...

Edit: My math hasnt been particularly well exercised of late, if anyone wants to tweak my numbers, feel free :)

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Why was this thread even unlocked? It's just going to turn into the same insult-infested thread that it's been. Clearly those against Steam exclusivity will be just as angry, and wont stop raging until BIS changes its mind or the game comes out. And those who are pro-steam will respond in kind. Thread should be closed permanently.

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According to BIS, multiple version was a huge drain on resources:

you cut out a part of my post, I meant you dont have to have multiple versions if you release drm free. Which you might as well because it doesnt stop piracy.

Edited by Leon86

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Why closed? i am started the gaming for 12 Years and was a pice of the hole nice Comm. This is the only way to say "I'm sad about it" over this way.

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Why was this thread even unlocked? It's just going to turn into the same insult-infested thread that it's been. Clearly those against Steam exclusivity will be just as angry, and wont stop raging until BIS changes its mind or the game comes out. And those who are pro-steam will respond in kind. Thread should be closed permanently.

Because some of us can still have a civil discussion and people have questions that can be answered unrelated to the whole steam raging.

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Ok ok ok...

This poll is BS, but not for the reason you state.

Some proper math:

We know that, prior to the DayZ sale-splosion, Arma2 had sold at least half a million copies.

We know that there are ~56,000 users registered on this forum.

We know that of those ~56,000, only ~4,600 are considered "active" (exactly what this means, I'm not sure, gonna assume it means "has posted in the last month" or so)

Of those ~4,600 active users, only ~400 have voted in the poll.

So, of the 500,000 [known] Arma "customers", 10% are registered to the forums. Of that 10%, only 10% are active, and of that active 1% (I'm gonna take the MASSIVE assumption that all 4,600 active users have seen this thread) only 10% have bothered to vote in the poll. Of that 0.1% of total customers who voted, only 10% "wont" buy A3 because of steam...

So really, if this poll is indicative of anything BI is gonna lose like 0.0001% of its total customer base.

And, Like I already said, if the MW2 boycott is anything to go by, most people will eventually give in and buy the game anyway...

Also, that is not even considering the mass influx of players from DayZ and the PR thats generating...

Edit: My math hasnt been particularly well exercised of late, if anyone wants to tweak my numbers, feel free

That doesn't make sense. So you're saying that those who are active in the forums but didn't vote will buy ArmA 3? Those who registered but aren't active will buy ArmA 3? Those who bought ArmA 2 but didnt register will buy ArmA 3? If 0.08% of the entire ArmA II consumerb base voted in the poll, there is an even distribution of both Steam and anti-Steam voters. Each poller are independant variables (so the fact that one voter's choice will not influence another's choice), if you keep expanding the amount of voters to the entire ArmA consumer base, the ratio of 88-12 will remain constant since the probability of each voter voting a yes is 88% and vice versa ...

If I follow your flow of logic, by calculations only 0.0666% of the entire ArmAII consumer base will buy ArmA III.

You're right DayZ has given publicity to ArmA series but since DayZ is going standalone, it's safe to assume that most of the DayZ consumer base wouldn't require a base ArmA game to play DayZ and therefore you can start counting the DayZ consumer base as independent from potential ArmA III sales

Edited by JeffersPang

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That doesn't make sense. So you're saying that those who are active in the forums but didn't vote will buy ArmA 3? Those who registered but aren't active will buy ArmA 3? Those who bought ArmA 2 but didnt register will buy ArmA 3?

No, he is saying that there is only concrete data for 400 people that have voted and that the rest is uncertainty.

You wouldn't conclude the presidential elections and say "Yes, the ratio of voters will stay like this" after such a minor (0.1%) amount of data.

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So you're saying that those who are active in the forums but didn't vote will buy ArmA 3?

No, I'm saying that:

the ratio of 88-12 will remain constant since the probability of each voter voting a yes is 88% and vice versa ..

is wrong.

Because this thread, which like, 0.001% of the total customer-base has even seen is NOT representative of the community at large. Which, as we knew before the DayZ sales numbers exploded, was happily enjoying Arma 2 on steam.

If anything, this thread is indicative of how little a "problem" the loss of the non-steam people will be to BI.

The scenario:

Those against the change will be the most vocal about it. They will see the news post, they will come to the forums, they will complain.

Those who dont give a monkeys whether or not its on steam will, generally, pass on by, not taking any special action to try and sway things one way or another.

Considering that, given that only 10% of the votes cast were against it, we can clearly see that the losses would be of a very small minority. And not some mass-exodus of people as the anti-steam people seem to like to suggest.

Edit: Ninja'd by sniperwolf :D

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No, he is saying that there is only concrete data for 400 people that have voted and that the rest is uncertainty.

You wouldn't conclude the presidential elections and say "Yes, the ratio of voters will stay like this" after such a minor (0.1%) amount of data.

But it's still valid no? This is not like the Presidential election where certain geographical areas are biased/skewed in favour of particular candidates (so if you only count votes in Kentucky, you'd probably end up with a republican President). BI isn't exactly a pro or anti Steam extremist hub so it's likely that the 88-12 ratio will stay constant give or take a few percentage errors.

Oh my goodness I think I am going to explode soon.

Out of the 500,000 consumers, a random selection of 400+- of them have voted in the poll. Out of the 400 candidates, they have voted and the polls shows the probability the next voter will choose a YES is 88% and an NO is 12%.

If you expand the voting base, there will be random fluctuations in the ratio but it will converge more or less towards 88-12 because from the 400 candidates originally chosen are a random basket of consumers. You are assuming that the rest of the ArmA II consumers (which would be around 499,600 people) WILL buy ArmA 3

Edited by JeffersPang

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But it's still valid no? This is not like the Presidential election where certain geographical areas are biased/skewed in favour of particular candidates (so if you only count votes in Kentucky, you'd probably end up with a republican President). BI isn't exactly a pro or anti Steam extremist hub so it's likely that the 88-12 ratio will stay constant give or take a few percentage errors.

Yes, the data is valid for what it represents - the 400 people that voted. Nothing else.

BI forums are a hub of the pro-ArmA community, if anything, you'd conclude here that this data is skewed towards "Yes" because majority of people will buy the game because they are fans. Remember, this isn't about Steam, poll asks will you buy the game. BI forums here are Kentucky and the Republican candidate is "I love ArmA". (Ninja edit: As post below me illustrates)

It's like polling McDonalds vs Burger King at a McDonalds, sure some are there because their friends made them come or something, but majority are there because they enjoy the food.

Edited by Sniperwolf572

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I do like having some nice boxes holding "my game" even if I know I had just bought a license to use, but I do like boxes, because I am an old timer or because I like making miscellanies.

I am aware of a world wide tendency to dematerialization, I don't like it but there nothing I can do against Microsoft+Sony+Nintendo+Apple+ ...

I have enjoyed playing OFP, then Arma on MP while using GameSpy browser.

Some boss at IGN thinks GameSpy must be closed due to business reason.

I don't like it but there is nothing I can do against it.

I am not fond of Steam.

I had to register on Steam to make my "Civilization V" game works even if I had the DVD in the box.

I am an "Arma serie" addict so I don't mind about the bottle and I just ask about some more booze.

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If you expand the voting base, there will be random fluctuations in the ratio but it will converge more or less towards 88-12 because from the 400 candidates originally chosen are a random basket of consumers. You are assuming that the rest of the ArmA II consumers (which would be around 499,600 people) WILL buy ArmA 3

Not at all.

Because the 400 people "chosen" here are not random.

They are, as Sniperwolf says, the hardcore fans, those who have done the extra effort to get involved with the "community"

They are a small subset of the much larger player base, and not a good random sample for two reasons:

1. They are hardcore fans who will buy the game anyway.

2. They are hardcore fans who are strongly against steam, and will make as much noise as they can to make their numbers seem as large as possible to try and get things skewed their way.

Given that the people strongly opposed to steam have said their piece, and that has amounted to ~10% of the active hardcore. Thats not a strong showing for the anti-steam.

If you were to properly randomly poll any of the half million pre-DayZ players of A2, you would probably find your ratio to be even smaller. Probably more like 98-2.

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