ArmA 3 on Steamworks?

[jblackrupert 14]

First point, I've heard a lot about, but don't know enough to say anything about.

It's pretty obvious people hate console ports reading forums, Youtube comments and reviews.

It's a lot harder to sucker PC gamers now, too many sources of information. PR bullshit only go so far when Youtube videos appear within minutes of a shitty games release.

Second point, the rate at which PC hardware is being rendered obsolete is slowing down, what's causing it is software not catching up to hardware.

Thats what I said, there's no point upgrading hardware because all the crap out there will run on PC that appeared the same time as the last generation of consoles.

Third point, Nvidia is offering F2P credit, not games.

Thats just a recent thing, Metro 2033 is free now courtesy of Nvidia and previous to that a lot of large retailers were giving away 3 or more AAA titles with card purchases. [Digital downloads]

[gibonez 18]

Awesome glad to see steam works is coming to arma 3.

Maybe now they will also add workshop so installing mods like ACE, dayz etc is a simple click no more having to deal with outside clunky software.

[celery 8]

I am curious, why some people hate Steam so much.

It's the decision to go Steam-exclusive, not necessarily Steam itself. This far everyone's had a free choice where to buy Arma, but not anymore. That's why people are complaining about everything and anything that Steam does worse than other distributors or formats; those worse qualities are now forced upon everyone who wanted to buy Arma 3.

[kualus 1]

Thats just a recent thing, Metro 2033 is free now courtesy of Nvidia and previous to that a lot of large retailers were giving away 3 or more AAA titles with card purchases. [Digital downloads]

Silly me, I forgot about the free Borderlands 2 offers.

[zoog 18]

there are very valid concerns exposed in this thread, if it eases your argument to keep looking only at childish ones...

oh yes, there are certainly valid concerns, I read them as well and fully respect those :)

[KillerP90 10]

It's the decision to go Steam-exclusive, not necessarily Steam itself. This far everyone's had a free choice where to buy Arma, but not anymore. That's why people are complaining about everything and anything that Steam does worse than other distributors or formats; those worse qualities are now forced upon everyone who wanted to buy Arma 3.

Okay but can someone PM or tell me a few things steam does worse than other DIGITAL distributors?

Also it is quite possible to buy disc copies and activate them on steam.

(See Modern Warfare 3 and Dawn of War 2 Retribution)

[gibonez 18]

I am curious is there any possibility that since arma 3 is now steamworks hacking and scripting will now go down ?

VAC locks your steam account if you are caught cheating forcing you to lose all your steam games ?

[zoog 18]

It's the decision to go Steam-exclusive, not necessarily Steam itself. This far everyone's had a free choice where to buy Arma, but not anymore.

You still have a choice where to buy arma, it's not store exclusivity. It's just that steamworks will be an integral and required aspect of the game, which means you have to install and run Steam while playing, also if you buy it on DVD or from a different digital retailed tore like store.bistudio.

---------- Post added at 11:46 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:45 PM ----------

VAC locks your steam account if you are caught cheating forcing you to lose all your steam games ?

Depends if BIS implements VAC. It's up to the developer as far as I know.

[tonygrunt 10]

I am curious is there any possibility that since arma 3 is now steamworks hacking and scripting will now go down ?

VAC locks your steam account if you are caught cheating forcing you to lose all your steam games ?

No mention of using VAC for ArmA3 and VAC doesn't lock your account. It doesn't allow you to join a VAC enabled server for the game you were banned. Also there is a mention on your profile that you have a VAC ban.

[gammadust 12]

I am curious is there any possibility that since arma 3 is now steamworks hacking and scripting will now go down ?

VAC locks your steam account if you are caught cheating forcing you to lose all your steam games ?

I think this was initially the reason for a DayZ standalone Steam tied. Not necessarily because of VAC itself, more because of the dissuasion it holds on the account of the potential cheater.

After knowing what was possible for DayZ, the Arma side of BI got inevitably interested...

I do think the DayZ demographic has more to gain from the move than the Arma 3 one. (As in it is more prone to cheating that the latter)

some background info:

from a DayZ dev report

Release will be on steam, using many of steams key features such as delta patching, VAC, server browsing technology. Patches to steam can be deployed by the click of a button in our build pipeline thanks to new technology developed by Steam, that is making our process extremely easy and exciting. We are very pleased that Steam is working with us so actively to make DayZ a great game and supporting us with quality features. I met many at the team at Valve at PAX, and really want to get them playing the game and getting their feedback to help in development. I’m incredibly thankful to people like Chet Faliszek (creator of L4D) who has been very supportive and helpful to me.

on VAC use

Integration work with the VAC Steamworks C++ API is simple, because the heavy-lifting is left to Steam. An advantage is that cheat detection is not handled directly by your game client. The only thing your game needs to do is use the API to find out whether or not a given user is VAC banned.

VAC is a component of Steamworks and the Steam client, and works by scanning the users system for cheats while your game is running. It works a lot like a virus scanner, and has a database of known cheats to detect

(my emphasis)

it is indeed tied to a users account, but yes, we have no confirmation that Arma 3 will use VAC

Edited February 23, 2013 by gammadust

[celery 8]

Okay but can someone PM or tell me a few things steam does worse than other DIGITAL distributors?

What do you think people have been talking about in this thread the whole time?

Also it is quite possible to buy disc copies and activate them on steam.

You still have a choice where to buy arma, it's not store exclusivity. It's just that steamworks will be an integral and required aspect of the game, which means you have to install and run Steam while playing, also if you buy it on DVD or from a different digital retailed tore like store.bistudio.

The game is still Steam-exclusive, and that is the problem. You get none of the benefits that a normal dvd release has, in fact you're stuck with a worthless piece of plastic that you can't give to anyone. Buying a Steam key is for all intents and purposes of this conversation the same thing as buying directly from Steam; buying the game for Steam is the only choice you have.

With Arma 2, nobody had a problem with Steam because it was a free choice.

Now with Arma 3 it's everyone's problem whether they want it or not because it's the only choice.

[zoog 18]

Buying a Steam key is for all intents and purposes of this conversation the same thing as buying directly from Steam;

I see, for me this is not the case. I usually hate to buy a game from the steam store because other shops are usually much and much cheaper. I don't mind Steam in general that much, I do however hate the prices they tend to ask in their store (even if developers decide it). That's why it can be important for people to be able to buy it wherever they want (like you first stated), even though it requires Steam.

[nes4day 2]

Uhhhh.. what? All's I said is that steam is unnecessary & that it isn't needed. Which it isn't. That makes me a 12yr old cod kid? I don't think so. Infact, I think that, all of the people who have to jump on the bandwagon of this "omg steam is soooo hip!!" bs are the 12 yr old cod kids. Cause you know how kids are... they have to keep with the times. I've played every game in the series without steam. seems to work just fine. :rolleyes:

Also, I don't need to make any valid reasons, I've already stated that steam is unnecessary (redundant). That's my reason.:confused: Seems the only rambling is being done by you. I used 3 words and you jump down my neck with ~100 words? Who's rambling?

Please refer to your PM for my reply.

I am curious is there any possibility that since arma 3 is now steamworks hacking and scripting will now go down ?

VAC locks your steam account if you are caught cheating forcing you to lose all your steam games ?

No, it doesn't lock out your account, like mentioned above, it will ban you from VAC secured servers, and in some games, you will be banned from their online services (COD for instance).

[Zyromkiru 10]

What do you think people have been talking about in this thread the whole time?

The game is still Steam-exclusive, and that is the problem. You get none of the benefits that a normal dvd release has, in fact you're stuck with a worthless piece of plastic that you can't give to anyone. Buying a Steam key is for all intents and purposes of this conversation the same thing as buying directly from Steam; buying the game for Steam is the only choice you have.

With Arma 2, nobody had a problem with Steam because it was a free choice.

Now with Arma 3 it's everyone's problem whether they want it or not because it's the only choice.

Good. It cuts profit from this company when you give games to someone else. There is already enough piracy and everything going around and this just adds the icing to the cake.

I see, for me this is not the case. I usually hate to buy a game from the steam store because other shops are usually much and much cheaper. I don't mind Steam in general that much, I do however hate the prices they tend to ask in their store (even if developers decide it). That's why it can be important for people to be able to buy it wherever they want (like you first stated), even though it requires Steam.

Gotta watch them steam sales too! I got slapped in the face because I purchased skyrim at another place within the month it came out and then shortly after it was on a steam sale for $30.

Although 90% of the time the best places is amazon for me.

[-Coulum- 35]

That's what I thought as well, until this whole Steam shitstorm started with mostly random assumptions and wild hyperboles all over the place

Well yes but not all of it is without at least a bit or reason and most of it is presented in a much nicer way than many other forums. You can tell that this is a forum composed more of guys over 20 rather than vice versa. Sometimes they whine. But who isn't guilty of that? Especially when you are so passionate about something.

I'll be probably using the Steam forums & the dedicated Community facility to answer the tons of questions that the new wave is going to have, I'd bet that they are more down-to-earth and grateful bunch. In fact, all of communication will be through Steam: Screenshots, videos with comments section, out of game chat with ArmA III players specifically, server lists, friend/online lists, patchnotes, news, mods/missions. Pretty cool.

That thing was novel back in 2004-2005, worked well too.

What! you raising your own little community of of new arma players. I feel sorry for all those poor steam users that are going to have their mind spoilt by your idiocy... I kid:) You are right. After Arma 3 initial release hype has died down, the new players left will probably be the grateful type that are willing to learn if someone is there to teach them. Most of the "kiddies" you guys all fear so much will leave arma quickly - They will most likely find arma boring and run off to play DayZ (Still think dayZ is bad for arma?). And as much as I hate steam, it will help greatly to help turn those eager newbies into serious arma players. Steam is going to be a great tool and will help the series more than it hurts it, even though it can be a true pain in the ass.

No one can say I'm not willing to adapt. I would have agreed the stupid SciFi setting, at least until 'normal' units were available.

But I will not use Steam, not after the experience I made with it some years ago (I wrote about that 2 days ago). In short: A software which removes complete folders on my computer without asking for confirmation is unacceptable. And I don't care if that was a one time screw-up, nor what gone wrong and where. I don't care how solid Steam works now (or not), alone the possibility that I lose data again will not make me deal seriously with Steam again.

Well I am not trying to give you crap or change your ways, but I will express my opinion on your stance if I may. If you don't care for a critical response than just ignore this...

First off, unless I am missing something, even though you say you are "willing to adapt", The second paragraph you write hear clearly contradicts that. I mean even putting up with the Scifi isn't really adapting. We all know there will be plenty of mods to fix this (and that you yourself are capable of making). So IMO that is not really willingness to adapt because you yourself don't have to really change your ways. But, when something you can't change comes up (steam) you do not seem to even try to adapt. You have say you will not get arma 3 because it requires steam, within 48 hours of the announcement. That is not willingness to adapting. At all.

I could also go on about how silly you sound by refusing steam because of problems you had years ago and clearly stating you will not even try to give it a second chance no matter how much better it is now. Did you ever play arma 2 on release. That was also pretty shitty years ago. Should people be saying that it is not even worth it to try patched Arma 2 or Arma 3 because of that? I can semi see/understand the reasons why some others will be dropping arma 3 due to steam. But if this is all you got - well I am sorry but that is kinda sad to hear.

Again only stating my opinion, I promise I will not judge your decision any further.

Still in response to -Coulum-

"To sum up, in questions, how is not buying arma 3 going to help you in anyway? How does that show foresight? Why is it such a bad thing to be "happy with the shiny"? If arma was offered on steam, absolutely free, would you still not go for it simply because of steam?"

How, when, what for a consumer uses a product is its full prerrogative, Steam reserves to itself the right to impose limitations on those rights (while it may not enforce it - hence my positive opinion this far). Yet it saddens me that BI, once an upholder of those consumer rights, and one on the other side of the fence for that matter, is moving on to other waters, and this imo, impoverishes the scene and industry. No matter if their hand was forced or not.

So this is not simply a matter of how much one will pay for the final product, the above are rights (and use value) one can not simply put a price tag on.

- Always on DRM (i like to use whatever product whenever i please, for as long as i please and no 3rd party shall interfere with that)

- Modding (both from a technical pov and authorship)

- Community impact on its identity (given so many valued members willing to quit the scene - justifiably so - while impoverishing it in the way and changing its fundamental character)

Thanks gammadust for taking the time to offer me further insight. I still don't fully understand, and doubt I ever will. I do understand that people are upset that they are forced to buy off of steam and will have control taken away from them (such as the ability to resell and the possibility they will lose any/all their games without warning). I share your hatred of steam.

But still does that make necessary to drop the entire game immediately? I mean if I went to a store to buy arma 3 (the only store that sold) and they said straight out that it cost 60 bucks, I could not resell, and they would steal it back from me in a year and I would have to install all sorts of shit to play it... I would still do it. No matter how much I would hate them for being so unfair I would buy that thing up because I am not going to let some asshole get in the way of me doing what I enjoy. I might bitch a bit and give em a piec of my mind, but I still would get my game for a year - essentially a year long rental, which compared to the standard fee for rentals, is not much at all. And the odds of steam "shutting down" any-time soon so in reality it would be much more than a year rental.

I also understand that people feel that steam is unethical or unlawful and thus they want to stand up for what they believe in and refuse steam, even if it mean giving up arma 3. I respect that attitude. But what confuses me, is what are you really gaining by doing such a thing. Best I can think of is that you will be able to sleep better. But its not like dropping arma 3 is going to get BIS to change their mind. Its not like dropping the game is going to hurt steam or BIS in anyway (unfortunate but true). So might as well give in and enjoy yourself!

Anyhow I probably never will understand in the near future. And I do realize my attitude that does lead to major world problems like pollution, poverty, media manipulation etc. - but come on its a video game! in the grand scheme of things it really doesn't matter that much to get into a ethical debate with myself. Well at least to me of course. I guess some of those dropping the game are either less into the game than I am and/or more concerned about what is right and wrong rather than what makes them happy.

Anyhow that's my piece.

gammadust I am glad to hear that even though you have your doubts, you are not dropping arma 3 straight way until you get a bit more details. That is how I would like to think I would approach the situation as well if I had serious problems with steam.

[amadieus 0]

I see, for me this is not the case. I usually hate to buy a game from the steam store because other shops are usually much and much cheaper. I don't mind Steam in general that much, I do however hate the prices they tend to ask in their store (even if developers decide it). That's why it can be important for people to be able to buy it wherever they want (like you first stated), even though it requires Steam.

Lol what? Tell me now wich few places are cheaper then Steam? Steam is the cheapest place to get games so far i know.

[Hicks_09 10]

Lol what? Tell me now wich few places are cheaper then Steam? Steam is the cheapest place to get games so far i know.

It will depend on which country you are in. I can only speak from a UK perspective. I've found Amazon and at time Play to be cheaper than steam. Gog also. Any mug can hold a sale, it's the off sale prices that I'll look at to see what type of pricing strategy an outlet uses. For older titles that aren't shackled to drm or use a cd key then ebay can be a good one. Gog again gets a mention with older titles as well. Not to mention the included bonus content for free. Oh yes... and the drm free aspect.

[Redjevel 1]

http://media.steampowered.com/steamcommunity/public/images/apps/107410/e242b03df5d4894aee0d4fbdf6cafdf62c361067.jpg

;p bigger nice picture

Edited February 24, 2013 by Redjevel

[celery 8]

Good. It cuts profit from this company when you give games to someone else. There is already enough piracy and everything going around and this just adds the icing to the cake.

It also cuts profit from the company when you don't pay a dollar each time you start their game. Why are you hurting the game industry bro?

See, the premise for my points is that people do have such a thing as normal consumer rights, and profit that could be made by violating them shouldn't even be considered "lost". Your premise is that any money that can even hypothetically be made rightly belongs to the corporate entity that is bold enough to squeeze it out of you.

[Tonci87 163]

one of my concerns is that steam can hurt moding. People who buy Silent Hunter 5 on Steam can't use the excellent community made .exe patches. Well I don't think that Arma will have mods that alter the .exe, but maybe you won't be able to create different mod profiles?

[Janxy 10]

But I will not use Steam, not after the experience I made with it some years ago (I wrote about that 2 days ago). In short: A software which removes complete folders on my computer without asking for confirmation is unacceptable. And I don't care if that was a one time screw-up, nor what gone wrong and where. I don't care how solid Steam works now (or not), alone the possibility that I lose data again will not make me deal seriously with Steam again.

If i'd have let deleted/corrupt files/folders or even trashed filesystems get to me, i'd have stopped using computers years ago. :)

[hellfire257 3]

Unless the game engine is fundamentally changed, there will be very little to no impact on modding.

[5133p39 12]

one of my concerns is that steam can hurt moding. People who buy Silent Hunter 5 on Steam can't use the excellent community made .exe patches. Well I don't think that Arma will have mods that alter the .exe, but maybe you won't be able to create different mod profiles?

Well, the EXE is different story (i think you are not legally allowed to make any changes to it anyway),

but regarding the mod folders... where did you get the idea that you wont be allowed to use them? :)

Why would a distribution platform have such impact on the product it distributes?

Game functionality and features depends on how the game is made, not on whether the game is distributed on DVDs, or on CDs, tapes, or via Steam.

Its exactly the same as if you would say "The game won't have HDR and the max. resolution will be 800x600, all because its distributed by Steam".

[archsceptic. 10]

It also cuts profit from the company when you don't pay a dollar each time you start their game.

Do you think we're on the slippery slope to pay per play, even if you only want to spend 5 minutes in the editor?

[W0lle 1042]

one of my concerns is that steam can hurt moding. People who buy Silent Hunter 5 on Steam can't use the excellent community made .exe patches. Well I don't think that Arma will have mods that alter the .exe, but maybe you won't be able to create different mod profiles?

We never had any mods which alter the .exe so far and we won't see any, simply because it's not allowed nor necessary to manipulate the arma2/3.exe - that's really nothing to worry about.

I'm strictly against Steam as we all know, but the horror stories that Steam prevents Modding are just that: Horror stories.

The only thing that can prevent modding is BI not releasing the required tools and then

:coop: