ArmA 3 on Steamworks?

[chortles 263]

Steam will force the install into the Steam folder right? I treat ArmA differently to other games, it gets its own location on a faster drive (SSD). Like my flightsim stuff. Currently I have exactly one other Steam game (Skyrim) so I guess Steam will insist on installing ArmA 3 to the same place?

As several people have said elsewhere, no this will not force the Arma 3 install into the Steam folder! You can designate a folder on the SSD when installing Arma 3 (at least if you do so by downloading) but it also appears that you can also download/install to the HDD where your Steam folder is, then copy/paste your Arma 3 install over to the SSD and add that folder to your Steam Library. For example, my Steam folder is located at <solid state drive>:\Games\Steam, but then my games are located within <hard drive>:\SteamLibrary and are run from there.

Took a look at how the Steamworks announcement is being taken outside of the BI forums:

If the game has proper mod support, and better mod support, especially if there is a workshop, then there isn't really any big issue with Steam. It really is a non issue, and for me personally, it has actually made me more interested in the title than I previously was.

[Deadfast 43]

So now that Steam has finally officially allowed installations outside its directory (unofficially this was always possible using reparse points) we just need an offline mode that works, ToS that conforms to EU consumer protection regulations and a working currency converter :).

[Hicks_09 10]

If we could get word on the possibility of a drm free release post launch that would be a start.

Don't need steam and certainly don't want it. The faff on with getting Human Revolution to behave itself... All the problems I had with that were due to steam. If I hadn't needed to use a steamworks shackled executable there wouldn't have been the faff on. And what did steamworks provide? Oh yeah... achievements.

There's no reason that Arma 3 couldn't be sold on Steam. Well... as long as it doesn't fall foul of their censorship. It doesn't need to have the drm component that steamworks is to be sold via steam.

So now that Steam has finally officially allowed installations outside its directory (unofficially this was always possible using reparse points) we just need an offline mode that works, ToS that conforms to EU consumer protection regulations and a working currency converter .

The TOS are fluid anyway. If you don't like a change to the service agreement you'll find yourself locked out of what you already bought until to bend over for the new agreement conditions. They've had what? A decade and they still can't get offline mode working reliably. Then again why would they?

[dunedain 48]

So now that Steam has finally officially allowed installations outside its directory (unofficially this was always possible using reparse points) we just need an offline mode that works, ToS that conforms to EU consumer protection regulations and a working currency converter :).

The offline mode has been fixed a while ago. Pricing sucks for us Europeans in the Euro zone, true. However there is no such thing as currency converter, it's just publishers and/or Steam who set different prices depending on the zone you live in. Good thing ArmaIII will be steamworks then. I'll just pre-order the boxed version on amazon.co.uk and redeem the code on Steam.

As for the ToS, especially regarding "used" games, it won't ever be changed. Unlike retail games, your digital products doesn't suffer from erosion after a while. My bought in 2001 CD of OFP broke when I tried to get it out of its box about 6 years ago. My DVD driver fails to read my old H&D2 CDs half of the time, same for R6RS. Meanwhile my 10 years old version of Half-Life on Steam will always work flawlessly. It would be suicidal for any digital retailer to allow its users to freely dispose of their games, on top of that many titles even on Steam have other built-in DRMs requiring an online activation which makes it impossible for most games to be reselled anyway. Which is why I support Steamworks personnaly, it's only one relatively light DRM, instead of several like for instance GTAIV which has 4 drms "Steam, Securom, GWL, Social Club" when you buy it on Steam. Steamworks actually makes it much easier for your to resell your games, even if it's illegal.

If you're talking of the fact mainlanders cannot buy games from the UK Steamstore, then my bad I totally agree and they should change it. Only possible if UK citizens aren't suicidal enough to opt out of the EU and the single market though...

It's also worth mentioning that the used PC game market was dead long ago before Steam, when publishers began to put CD keys with online validation on their games.

Edited February 23, 2013 by dunedain

[sander 14]

See you target me as a fanboy... There is no hate here at all and is full discussion. I just hate it when people stay soo old school that they won't adapt to change and all they do is complain and complain and EVERY time something like this happens people still buy the game anyways and know it's everything they wanted then go *huff puff*.. * "well... i guess it isn't too bad"

You instantly turn this way out of proportion.

Accept change, give it a try, adapt. This company knows what is best and if you aren't willing to trust them then you aren't loyal.

It is a most common mistake made nowadays to consider all change as an improvement, whereas the word is in fact neutral in that respect. Change can be for the better or the worse. Going Steam only is most definitely not a change for the better for the consumer's point of view as it involves relinquishing personal information and control over one's own machine to a third party. This increases the cost of acquiring and playing the game (cost being not just €€€) to an unacceptable level for those old school people who date from the time where people were instructed in reading - and language skills that enable them to fully understand the conditions imposed by Steam. It does not matter whether Steam asks € 0,01 for the licence, the other penalties involved raise the associated cost of the buy to a significantly higher level. My adaptation to that is very simple, I will refrain from the deal.

A company might know what is best for its own interests, but it does not necessarily know what is best for each of its potential customers nor necessarily act accordingly when it does. It has primarily a responsibility to its owners' and employees' interests which may or may not coincide with those of their customers. As for trusting it is good to trust and better to check up. Checking up on Steam results in trust being withheld. It is not worthy of loyalty.

Regards,

Sander

Edited February 23, 2013 by sander

[Placebo 28]

I think this transition will serve as an useful idiot cull for the community, driving away the insufferables.

Calling anyone on either side of the "issue" idiots, morons and the like serves no good whatsoever and is essentially flamebaiting, please cut it out.

[shadowze 1]

I've got no problem with my mom getting a new boyfriend but I draw the line in being forced to sleep with him as well. :)

Well said sir

[Iroquois Pliskin 0]

Is this thread going to be running for the duration of the whole pre-release hype?

Someone, pls ban me again. :cc:

[down8 30]

To whoever it was who said that Maruk's reply was "blatant lies" and even complained about DnA having become project lead four months ago and complaining about TKOH, three words for you: DAN. MUSIL. LEFT.One more time, let's do this again :rolleyes: the devblog basically implies the option of taking time / letting Arma 3 slip into 2014 came up and that Maruk said "NO". As -Coulum- said, the devblog's words emphasizing 2013 may have been an euphemism for "2013 or simply cut our losses with Arma 3 and cancel it".

Heck, I wouldn't be surprised if the Arma 3 devs saw the extent of support that Rocket and his devs were getting from the standalone from Valve and that that influenced the decision to go Steamworks.I can vouch for having seen "got in through DayZ, but I'm liking Arma 2 as well!" elsewhere as well... and I would have hoped by now that even the "old school" who hate DayZ would have realized by now that Wasteland proves that the new players are not just going to go away when the zombies do. :rolleyes:People were getting fed up two years ago, and that's what fueled the Battlefield 3 hype... that BF3 ended up not living up to that does not negate "people were already looking for something different".

As far as "DayZ-fueled Arma 2 Steam sales", here's the thing -- the reason that the influx came from Steam probably was because of Steam's sheer visibility and brand dominance in digital distribution (I mean as a "storefront" seller, not in DRM/client) to the point that when people were looking for Arma 2: Combined Operations... their first stop on the search for CO was likely Steam. :p I don't mean "searching for Steam keys for CO" (I believe the BIStore is the only other outlet for those?) but I mean "searching for CO, period"... considering that sheer dominance, why wouldn't Maruk want to leverage that "first place people look" visibility...

... especially when Steamworks can actually be a selling point outside of the BI forums? Like, for example, when a GameStop employee told someone about that and it increased that customer's positive interest in Arma 3? :icon_twisted:

P.S. Everyone complaining about Steam somehow allowing a less mature and less hardcore crowd to play Arma 3 (as if they already couldn't simply by buying Arma 3) should have realized that that battle was lost over half a year ago... y'know, when Jay started saying things like "let's not be afraid of that word, streamlined" and Ivan said that "Operation Flashpoint was a s****y game"...

Nice post.

[NeuroFunker 11]

everyone whos moaning about steam, reminds me on that picture lmfao

[down8 30]

Steam will force the install into the Steam folder right? I treat ArmA differently to other games, it gets its own location on a faster drive (SSD). Like my flightsim stuff. Currently I have exactly one other Steam game (Skyrim) so I guess Steam will insist on installing ArmA 3 to the same place?

[NoRailgunner 0]

Reading the devblog it seems more that the project A3 was going off the tracks long ago and only the option of Delta-patching @ Steam seems to help that A3 is not going trainwreck with release set in 2013. Are BIS just swamped with too much projects going on at the same time? Again "overambitious" BIS game projects which will have an "unfortunate" release status but will get a long betabuild support?? Guess Steam will help to get more attention through their network but how long the attention spawn/patience of the mass of new A3 players will be remains to be seen. Now back to the splendid or was it awesome (?) customer support, consumer rights and currency converter of Steam.... :)

[Kayweg 10]

It's very easy for people to fall into the trap of believe that because they personally have had no problems with steam that therefore there are no problems with steam. Trying to convince these people otherwise is an exercise in futility. Much the same way as was the case with GFWL. I had no problems personally with it. Didn't stop large numbers of paying customers having a torrid time with it. Just because it worked fine for me - I didn't see the need to want it included with every title. It wasn't and isn't needed. Just like mandatory steam requirements. However you'll find a crowd with the "No steam - no sale" mentality.

Steam functions as a store. You have the chance of having a non steam tied executable which can be ran independently. Otherwise it will require steam to run. You will however need to have the title fully updated before it is first ran. Then you can choose to not auto update it - not before that first run or re-installation. This opt out of auto update has for some people been ignored as well. It's an iffy implementation. Just like the "offline" mode. BIS hedging their bets and talking about tweaking this aspect is puzzling. Unless they are now working on programming steam then they are subject to the performance of steam and the flaws that come with it. If you want it to work when offline mode doesn't work then guess what? You need an independent offline executable that isn't tied to the drm. If that accommodation is going to be put in place to solve issues with the iffy offline mode then why bother tying the title to a drm in the first place. Why not just sell Arma 3 through steam as with Arma 2. Why even shackle it to a drm? More likely is that you'll be stuck with a shackled executable. And when offline mode doesn't work... well then that's just tough and you have a £30 coaster - and then the complaining starts. Something that could have been avoided if there was an independent executable.

With Steamworks you are tied to steam regardless. Steam is a store with optional drm components and how they have sold Arma 2 previously. Steamworks is a drm with baubles. While the drm was patched out of Arma 2 after release - a good move by BIS. Patching the steam out of steamworks just isn't going to happen. All you can then do is ignore the title and make it clear that you won't be supporting BIS until they provide alternate releases that aren't tied to a drm client. Money talks, companies are not your friends. Get that relationship clear and you start getting a good service on the customers terms. We're the ones forking over the money.

If they were to release a drm, steamworks free version via retail or gog down the line I'd be interested, so what if it takes longer to releases? Until that point however it's not even worth £5 - and certainly not worth positive mention or marketing when discussing the titles release with others.

Consumer rights are taken far more seriously in Europe than the US. I get the impression that a large part of the customer base for the Arma series is from Europe, hence the backlash against the issues of rights that Steam raises.

I suggest that everyone prints and frames this and reads it out loud at least once a day.

The most convincing contribution of the lot imho, tyvm.

[hellfire257 3]

Aye, there's a reason GOG is popular.

I for one like to be in control of my game, and I don't want my hand held.

[celery 8]

As for the ToS, especially regarding "used" games, it won't ever be changed. Unlike retail games, your digital products doesn't suffer from erosion after a while. My bought in 2001 CD of OFP broke when I tried to get it out of its box about 6 years ago. My DVD driver fails to read my old H&D2 CDs half of the time, same for R6RS. Meanwhile my 10 years old version of Half-Life on Steam will always work flawlessly. It would be suicidal for any digital retailer to allow its users to freely dispose of their games, on top of that many titles even on Steam have other built-in DRMs requiring an online activation which makes it impossible for most games to be reselled anyway. Which is why I support Steamworks personnaly, it's only one relatively light DRM, instead of several like for instance GTAIV which has 4 drms "Steam, Securom, GWL, Social Club" when you buy it on Steam. Steamworks actually makes it easier for your to resell you game, even if it's illegal.

Get your facts straight. There is already a European law that states that a digital copy which is licensed to you indefinitely shall be treated like an owned physical copy, i.e. the license should be transferable. There is a legal case against Steam at this moment because attempts to prevent transfer of digital licenses are illegal from the European perspective.

Just because Steam wants things to be in a certain way doesn't make it the law. Who do you think they were trying to benefit at whose expense when they devised their end user agreement? And of course if they change something in the end user agreement, they'll lock you out of your account until you accept the new travesty of your supposed rights. That's a questionable practice at the least and I wouldn't be surprised if it was illegal as well.

The worst thing is that Steam is going to keep its course until it loses that legal case. Does it evoke a positive feeling, knowing that they're prepared to throw a metric shit ton of money away to pay lawyers and fines just to keep you from getting basic consumer rights for a little longer?

It's also worth mentioning that the used PC game market was dead long ago before Steam, when publishers began to put CD keys with online validation on their games.

So nobody will ever think of putting their games on auction sites because according to you, "the used PC game market was dead long ago before Steam"? I auctioned off my games the most actively around 2006-2009.

[dunedain 48]

Get your facts straight. There is already a European law that states that a digital copy which is licensed to you indefinitely shall be treated like an owned physical copy, i.e. the license should be transferable. There is a legal case against Steam at this moment because attempts to prevent transfer of digital licenses are illegal from the European perspective.

I know that, I browse steamunpowered as well... Correct me if I wrong but it was just a case of jurisprudence in Germany when some guy gained the right to resell his license for some program. I'm just saying that this would be an unreasonable law that will most likely deeply hurt the industry if voted/applied. You have more chances to see it abrogated than every online digital retailers going bankrupt.

So nobody will ever think of putting their games on auction sites because according to you, "the used PC game market was dead long ago before Steam"? I auctioned off my games the most actively around 2006-2009.

No, according to me you guys are blinded by your hatred of Steam and willingfully occult the fact it's been the case on PC far before Steam was created. Those ToS also apply to every single digital retailer out there, not just Steam. Reselling games was always illegal, and could hardly be done on PC for any game people played online. If you found people gullible enough or who trusted you enough to buy used games they intended to play online, well good for you...

If your really want so bad to resell ArmaIII, while not anyless illegal, it's actually going to be easier as your ArmaIII key will be linked to one Steam account of your choosing. Meaning people will know for certain you won't be using the serial key for yourself after you sold the account.

To illustrate my argumentation, it clearly says right before the back cover of the booklet you'll find in your OFP box that, and this is a rough translation from French, "This program has been granted to your as a license, it was not sold to you. This agreement doesn't give you any title or property right over the program or the copy of the program which has been provided to you". I bought that game almost 12 years ago, and it wasn't anything special even back then.

Edited February 23, 2013 by dunedain

[PuFu 4591]

A lot of hate towards steam here. A lot not willing to understand that:

1. ArmA3 has an expire development date. BI is a business and they need to put their product on sale sooner rather than later. If Steam solves at least part of the logistics, i do understand the call

2. ArmA franchise kept alive for as long as it is due to its modding, and (partly) on going fixes and development process. There has been tons of requests regarding a better mod handling, an easier join server ability and auto-mod download, or at least switching mods on and off based on server preferences . I know sickboy has that fixed to a certain degree via his six upadter /play with six. That said, it is always better to have an integrated solution for it. I guess those are another part of the reason BI took the Steam linked route. Easier patching, easier mod implementation. I am a bit worries about what bink said about the IP rights and mods landing on steam workshop by people who put them there rather than the actual developer. I hope BI will have a hand in this and try and manage this resource by themselves (if possible). If not i do foresee increased issues with the modding scene.

3. Games will go towards digital download. Unfortunately, this is more than a trend, it is a a fix to the logistics and distribution problems. Yes, steam is going towards a monopoly, but for me the reason is that they have no competitors because no one else will reacg that high rather than they have a good one which they sacked on purpose. Same goes with microsoft and apple if you want. Why reinvent the wheel and spend time and money developing (and possibly failing) your own competitive solutions when there is one already free and available on the market.

4. Regarding licenses: If you were to read you DVD A2 EULA, you are licensed to use the software. You don't own the software. Surely, it is easier to give it to a friend to play it now, but than again, buying second hand games for online play is a big no no (just like with buying keys).

I do respect people who have a very stiff approach towards steam (being it pro or against) due to principles or personal or technical issues. Like Wolle, celery, xeno and so on.

There is, at least from my POV, when you put the upsides in balance with the downside, a lot of advantages for both the developers and the clients than drawbacks by using Steam and their connected services.

Edited February 23, 2013 by PuFu

[tonygrunt 10]

Reselling games was always illegal

Are you sure about that, illegal as breaking the law? What about all the stores that sell used games, shouldn't they be raided? Or is it a special law that applies only on pc games.

[dunedain 48]

Illegal as breaking the ToS you accept when installing a game. The used game market was always more harmful to the industry than piracy. People who buy used games actually show intent to spend money on the media, while pirates don't.

Kind of the way GAME went bankrupt by pissing off a lot of publishers who then refused to sell them games on debt. Because of the way they always pushed forward used console games rather than full price retail games. Which meants more $$ for GAME and a lot less $$ for publishers.

Edited February 23, 2013 by dunedain

[shadowze 1]

Illegal as breaking the ToS you accept when installing a game. The used game market was always more harmful to the industry than piracy. People who buy used games actually show intent to spend money on the media, while pirates don't.

Kind of the way GAME went bankrupt by pissing off a lot of publishers who then refused to sell them games on debt. Because of the way they always pushed forward used console games rather than full price retail games. Which meants more $$ for GAME and a lot less $$ for publishers.

And here is me thinking they went down the toilet due to the recession

[dunedain 48]

And here is me thinking they went down the toilet due to the recession

It has a lot to do with it. But every big release they buy huge stocks of said game and only reimburse when they can. It works great as long as publishers play along. GAME pissed a lot of people by selling so much used games and even ordering their employees to encourage customers to buy used rather than brandnew games.

Edited February 23, 2013 by dunedain

[Dwarden 1124]

The joys of using steam. Ten minutes only today, till all the updates got initialized and steam gui started being usable.

I wonder who had the bright idea that the update subsystem has higher priority than the gui.

http://i.imgur.com/WlOompgl.jpg

report this please to Valve

also send me email with some details about this ( use my BIForum nickname @bistudio.com)

[T.S.C.Plage 0]

To whoever it was who said that Maruk's reply was "blatant lies" and even complained about DnA having become project lead four months ago and complaining about TKOH, three words for you: DAN. MUSIL. LEFT.

I didn't say his reply were lies but that I think the given reasons in the blog fall into this category. Daniel left? I bet he had more then one good reason to leave the sinking ship that's called Bohemia Interactive but that doesn't explains why DnA had to become the Project Lead. Especially when you consider what major f'up TKOH actually is.

[cannonouscrash 12]

Quick, BIS release some A3 artwork/videos to stem the flow derogatory comments towards your use of steam for A3.

You said yourselves you knew that some people in the community wouldn't appreciate it. It just so happens that it seems 90% of this community doesn't like the idea of steam exclusive, perhaps the Dayz 'community' is the one that matters.

[bdfriend 10]

Let's face it....

It's gone...it's gone and will never return.

No longer there will be this kind of feeling not "playing" a "game".

No longer we will take proud in having some sort of access to an epic military simulator.

No longer we will share this intimate feeling that the ArmAverse actually separates the

serious gamers from the virtual "child soldiers".

Without any doubt, Bohemia shifted the ArmA scene towards "Steam-Kiddies", already

with releasing this calamitous "Mod" in Spring 2012.

What where the marketing officials thinking...well, profit.

That's very sad, but true. And it continues!

Over the years, whenever a friend asked me like, "...why the hell, is this game so buggy,

why is it so complicated, why are there so many technical problems in that game,

and why didn't they even fix it for over 10 years...so how can this company even survive...?"

I told him that this would be the by-product of an official military simulator, and thus it's priced as a game and still it is sooo epic.

This company, I told him further, doesn't need our money, they earn huge amounts of money from the military all over the world.

Or so I thought.

Well, so things have changed.

Now, there will simply be another Gaming Software Developer that is literally trying

to squeeze out the pocket money from 14yrs old kids with eye-candy and gimmickry!

Well, and THIS is what Steam is made for...it IS nothing but a sales platform.

It is not about the future way of distribution (which actually even increases the profit anyway),

it is the future of making money from unpremeditated bying!

It is also another perfect example of how the manipulation will work in future:

Collecting all the behavioural preferences of a player and offering him exactly what he likes,

makes most of these manipulation victims not even realizing that they did not buy their latest game out of own reflections!

And THEREFORE using Steam is to be refused.

People have absolutely forgotten at which price any "convenience" comes today.

I not willing to give up my freedom as a consumer and costumer of Bohemia.

I won't allow myself to be EXTORTED to be able to play ArmA3. But this I will have to decide for my own.

There won't be a rising of the "old" community...this desaster cannot be stopped anymore.

*slumps down, realizing there might be no way out*

But, there is a last idea that spins through my head offering some kind of hope, that a rational thought could prevent the Steam abyss:

Still, damn old, well-known problems and bugs won't be fixed. One "workaround" after another...all A3-imagery only distracted the viewers from old bugs so far.

Did Bohemia even waste a minute contemplating the reaction of all these spoiled brats when they release their ArmA3 without even the campaign working correctly?

_______

I can only appeal:

Please, you guys at Bohemia, sit back, remember the old days, when Codemasters was clearly demonstrating HOW EXACTLY you can fail when getting greedy!