Do you want Laaagdoll Physics in ArmA 3?

[last_apoc 10]

Judging by the poll I think it's safe to say the vast majority of us, the fans, want ragdoll physics.. personally I can not wait for ragdoll physics, to me it will be a huge step up in immersion.. no more lame "guy getting shot" sequences when I just ran his ass over.

when I shoot someone from far away in arma II and they do their little animation it's alright, I mean it works, but if it was ragdoll.. like they fell down some stairs or off a building, or even down a slope, that would be so much more immersive.

And along with this comes vehicle physics, again, they WORK right now in arma II, but they could be so much better with physX added. the car physics will be so much better which will undoubtedly add immersion as well.

[Windexglow 10]

Math is going to be almost the exact same regardless of hardware. Discussing just how much is about as anal as discussing how infinite procedural terrain is not infinite since it's on a computer.

All the server needs to care about is the location of the torso, or major limbs. So the server knows you can properly pull a body around. The hands, fingers? Has no impact, so server would leave that position (loading them up, for example) up to the player.

Secondly, a ragdoll doesn't have to be a full on limp body. You can blend animations with a ragdoll - a soldier playing a wounded animation at an angle (staircase or hill) for example. The guys at WolfFire games have amazing videos on it.

http://www.youtube.com/user/WolfireGames

An example (1:50~)

[Iroquois Pliskin 0]

Math is going to be almost the exact same regardless of hardware. Discussing just how much is about as anal as discussing how infinite procedural terrain is not infinite since it's on a computer.

All the server needs to care about is the location of the torso, or major limbs. So the server knows you can properly pull a body around. The hands, fingers? Has no impact, so server would leave that position (loading them up, for example) up to the player.

Secondly, a ragdoll doesn't have to be a full on limp body. You can blend animations with a ragdoll - a soldier playing a wounded animation at an angle (staircase or hill) for example. The guys at WolfFire games have amazing videos on it.

http://www.youtube.com/user/WolfireGames

An example (1:50~)

Exactly. The server doesn't care how the independent suspension of wheels on the Tatra truck works, as an example,

RNw7_lyxPmA

Server only knows the class or type of vehicle/object and XYZ of the it, client shows the eyecandy. Frankly, I'm not sure why opponents of ragdolls are against genuine simulation, must be a Tetris nostalgia thing.

[walker 0]

Hi Iroquois Pliskin

That is not we are talking about, can you try and keep on topic.

Kind Regards walker

[Cookieeater 10]

Garry's mod on the Source engine, yet though on a smaller scale, has pretty much nearly all physics synchronized on it's games, and it uses Havok.

(physics delay is visible at 2:50)

ooe3x-dvuxg

The above gamemode is named "Trouble in Terrorist Town", and all of the ragdolls are serverside as corpses can be carried around and hidden from view, and can be inspected for clues. There is a delay in killing someone, and then seeing their ragdoll start falling down, but it's barely noticeable. The ragdoll is in the same position and angle for everybody, with every part of the body being synchronized.

Edited May 26, 2011 by Cookieeater

[Goos 0]

If this has been mentioned already then I apologise but I wasn't going to read through 26 pages of posts. There are always people complaining ragdoll physics is unrealistic and to that I feel compelled to mention the way the ragdoll system itself works is completely realistic (simply put you die, you go limp like a rag doll. This is exactly what the system does) BUT what the problem has been in most previous games is developers don't have the common sense to give the in game characters enough weight so they go flying for miles with limbs flapping around like they are in low gravity THAT is the problem. I hope BIS have the wisdom to weigh characters bodies and limbs realistically so they don't perform acrobatics or faceplant and slide allong the grass/sand/whatever for 5-10 feet.

Like others have mentioned physics on units is sorely missed when you nail someone on a rooftop or the likes and they are suspended half way over the edge floating in mid air instead of sliding over the edge and falling. That so completely breaks immersion.

[dmarkwick 261]

Hi Iroquois Pliskin

That is not we are talking about, can you try and keep on topic.

Kind Regards walker

But Walker. The topic isn't going anywhere.

[walker 0]

Hi Cookieeater

And the number of players and AI entities that the "Trouble in Terrorist Town" game based on Garry's Mod physics is =?

On the specific matter you highlighted of the object appearing and then disappearing ~8 seconds later as the server updated the objects position. That is the kind of bug that can crash a game. Eg if the player had grabbed the gun in those ~8 seconds while the objects position was being updated by the physics engine then some one picks it up at the object at the second position, then you have a sanity error, but it could be excluded by the simple fact of only executing dropped weapon on completion of the ragdoll movement. Then requiring body search to find weapons. That would be correct for the physics.

I think the reason that Garry's Mod is unable to do this is that game death is dealt with by game engine. I would suggest he takes all inventory on death into an array then respawns it on completion of the ragdoll.

Of course he then has the problem of Ragdoll still being active long after death. So he would have to do the same after each subsequent body movement. A solution might be a separate positional array of inventory that spawns after the ragdoll center is static for 2 seconds thus separating the inventory from the body. Which leads to other problems such as inventory in space or inventory clipping into objects, but looking at the game engine that is what happens already, so no worse than the existing game play.

Awful game play by the way, but I know it is the out of date game engine so no reflection on Garry's Mod.

To DMarkwick

Well in each case people have suggested that they can refute the part of this answer in the poll "Yes I have seen lots of games with it in MP but I can not name one at the moment." by naming game engines or MODs of them with working Multi-player Ragdoll that ArmA could use and in each case I have knocked them down.

Mostly they have been knocked down by either having too low an Entity and Client count or by their use of Ghost Physics. I also point out that many games are Ragdoll in SP mode only; it is turned off in multiplayer.

Remember the physics has to cope with ArmA's existing entity and client count and objects affected by physics must be real; in other words affect the environment post death, otherwise why bother with Ragdoll, just disappear all dead and have a Magic swords and sorcery game.

So I think I am doing a great job of showing why the examples that people think will work in ArmA wont.

By the way I have already said that the suggestion of single point physics has some merritt. It is just that I would use it as an animation reference rather than a client side ragdoll as it would be less likely to produce bugs.

As I pointed out this is a compromise that most game makers have come to:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ragdoll_physics#Approaches

Also at the very least we have presented people on the forum with the problem, which is how to make physics deterministic in multiplayer.

Though I have got to say there are a lot of people who are failing to understand that while the software and hardware of a game engine physics may be doing floating point correctly; it in no way means the rest of PC's hardware and software is and that, that in turn can affect a physics engine.

http://www.gafferongames.com/networking-for-game-programmers/floating-point-determinism

If they are reading things like this then they are understanding the difficulties and roadblocks.

And who knows one of them might come up with something new.

Kind Regards walker

Edited May 26, 2011 by walker

[dmarkwick 261]

Well in each case people have suggested that they can refute the part of this answer in the poll "Yes I have seen lots of games with it in MP but I can not name one at the moment." by naming game engines or MODs of them with working Multi-player Ragdoll that ArmA could use and in each case I have knocked them down.

I have no idea what you just suggested, only 3 people have voted that way.

Mostly they have been knocked down by either having too low an Entity and Client count or by their use of Ghost Physics. I also point out that many games are Ragdoll in SP mode only; it is turned off in multiplayer.

I maintain that games that do not require or have not achieved MP ragdoll are simply not relevent. ArmA has many unique features, MP ragdoll will simply be another.

Remember the physics has to cope with ArmA's existing entity and client count and objects affected by physics must be real; in other words affect the environment post death, otherwise why bother with Ragdoll, just disappear all dead and have a Magic swords and sorcery game.

Implementation. Ragdoll can be frozen after coming to rest, meaning no further processing is necessary. Application of an unfreezing procedure needn't necessarily be done, but if it is, simply use the current existing system and apply the (I should say my) proposed ragdoll system to it. Bingo, dead bodies can be affected by dragging, explosion, demolition, terrain deformation, whatever. Dead bodies will still have different poses per client, but that's no problem as discussed.

So I think I am doing a great job of showing why the examples that people think will work in ArmA wont.

3 things:

You're doing a great job of simply repeating your stance.

Refuting already failed examples is good.

You've done a zero job of refuting new proposals.

By the way I have already said that the suggestion of single point physics has some merritt. It is just that I would use it as an animation reference rather than a client side ragdoll as it would be less likely to produce bugs.

This sounds like your main objection to applying new technology is that it's more likely to produce bugs. In which case you already have all the functionality you'll ever need :)

As I pointed out this is a compromise that most game makers have come to:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ragdoll_physics#Approaches

Also at the very least we have presented people on the forum with the problem, which is how to make physics deterministic in multiplayer.

The problem is not physics determinism, it's MP ragdoll. Please keep on topic :)

If they are reading things like this then they are understanding the difficulties and roadblocks.

And who knows one of them might come up with something new.

I think that is certain.

Edited May 26, 2011 by DMarkwick

[cyclone83 6]

@DMarkwick

THIS +1

Absolutely with you on every single statement.

[Iroquois Pliskin 0]

Hi Cookieeater

And the number of players and AI entities that the "Trouble in Terrorist Town" game based on Garry's Mod physics is =?

Kind Regards walker

And the number of players in ArmA 2 is =? Thirty two (32) to make it at least playable on a dedicated server running Warfare.

You imagine something else, walker? Thousands of players in the mind of yours, well, I haven't been able to observe this phenomena, if you exclude the 2x2 km death-match type modes, supporting upward of a hundred (100).

:rolleyes:

[gammadust 12]

This topic is no more than tomato pulp by now...

[Syonco 10]

You, Walker.. Just got served! :p

[Iroquois Pliskin 0]

This topic is no more than tomato pulp by now...

Courtesy of the Tetris trollers AKA walker. :cc:

keeSEJG4XzU

[hund 0]

I think the horse is dead already, guys. It seems a lot of people would like to see ragdolls in arma 3, some would not; and not one of them knows if we will. If BIS have not already decided whether to implement the system or not, surely they can do so without our expert assistance*.

On the other hand it is a discussion forum and peopleare discussing...senselessly so.

* I didn't mean that.

[Cdogwoof 11]

Well that was fun watching DMarkwick and Walker argue

[fludblud 10]

judging by the poll results, i think its abundantly clear where we all stand on ragdolls.

sure it takes a bit more CPU time but guess what? this is PC gaming, upgrade or deal with it. ragdolls are pretty much the most realistic death simulation you have of any game aside from euphoria animations used in GTA.

whats more realistic? 15 death animations played over and over that clip into walls and hang ramrod straight over buildings or ragdolls that react realistically to basic physics, gravity being one of them?

ragdolls would also indicate a full implementation of physX and finally an introduction of immersive realism into the arma series. whilst arma has always excelled in statistical realism such as bullet drop or muzzle velocity, arma has always been absolutely terrible at immersive realism such as building destruction, foliage, dust, grit and simulating the general dirty messy business of war. ragdolls are the way FORWARD, deal with it.

[krazikilla 5]

judging by the poll results, i think its abundantly clear where we all stand on ragdolls.

sure it takes a bit more CPU time but guess what? this is PC gaming, upgrade or deal with it. ragdolls are pretty much the most realistic death simulation you have of any game aside from euphoria animations used in GTA.

whats more realistic? 15 death animations played over and over that clip into walls and hang ramrod straight over buildings or ragdolls that react realistically to basic physics, gravity being one of them?

ragdolls would also indicate a full implementation of physX and finally an introduction of immersive realism into the arma series. whilst arma has always excelled in statistical realism such as bullet drop or muzzle velocity, arma has always been absolutely terrible at immersive realism such as building destruction, foliage, dust, grit and simulating the general dirty messy business of war. ragdolls are the way FORWARD, deal with it.

Perfect Finishing Post for this topic :)

[Sugz 10]

Perfect Finishing Post for this topic :)

Here Here!

[dmarkwick 261]

My work here is done :)

[neokika 62]

Interesting...

Funcom has added server side PhysX support for Age of Conan. Previously physics was handled client side, the changes were made to the game engine. The update is said to double the speed of physics processing in comparison to the old client based method.

"We are excited to be working closely with NVIDIA to integrate PhysX technology into our Dreamworld 2.5 engine," said Rui Casais, Chief Technology Officer at Funcom. "Server-side collision using PhysX will allow us to add a new level of realism to our online worlds, and we look forward to implementing other enhancements as well, including NVIDIA APEX clothing and destruction, to make our games even more interactive and immersive."

The addition makes Dreamworld the first MMO engine to have server side PhysX support according to the company. Other additions to Dreamworld 2.5 include a rewritten rendering engine.

"We are also proud to have launched a fully rewritten render engine for 'Age of Conan', yielding major performance increase on high-end systems and enabling several new visual features for lower end machines", said Casias. "We have been collaborating closely with NVIDIA in continuously improving the quality of the Dreamworld Render engine, resulting in fully new effects such as shader-based anti-aliasing techniques now being implemented in 'Age of Conan'."

The changes will also be present in Funcom's upcoming MMO, The Secret World.

Age of Conan: Hyborian Adventures released in May of 2008, an expansion, Rise of the Godslayer released in May of 2010. An Xbox 360 port of the game was previously planned but has since been canceled.

Source

_neo_

[Iroquois Pliskin 0]

My work here is done :)

It's only the beginning. Repost from this thread: http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?p=1938601#post1938601

http://minkara.carview.co.jp/userid/137019/blog/11188998/

PhysX implementation in VBS2.

[dmarkwick 261]

I look forward to playing Loadmaster Simulator v1.00 :)

[purepassion 22]

wow i can already imagine BIS informing us about those features!

They would be a great improvement.

@markwick PhysX was implemented to VBS2 for quite a long time ( Trailers etc)

[EDcase 87]

Lol Walker, looks like your poll backfired ;)

We'll have to wait and see what BIS can do.

(On separate note: I can't wait for VR goggles that have good res so we can have total immersion)