Do you want Laaagdoll Physics in ArmA 3?

[CyclonicTuna 87]

Hi CyclonicTuna

There is a video in that quoted post if you follow it to source you will see addional videos with a 50 calibre shooting a pig; I suggest you watch it. It shows the effect on human analoge, in this case a pig, of 50 caliber sniper; then rexamine your last statment. By the way 30 mm canon and large HE explosions already make you fly around in the RV engine and have done since BIS's OFP.

Then I suggest you watch this:

Actual footage shot in afghanistan

[purepassion 22]

wow yeah thats it

i think most people are really underestimating the punch you get when one of these badboys hit you

most games out there are really giving you a false impression

[ProfTournesol 956]

Then I suggest you watch this:

Actual footage shot in afghanistan

Arrgll that's awful :dead:

[purepassion 22]

but i know we will never see this ingame ( atleast not coming from BI's side, because they already said that they are really not a fan of gore and refuse it)

And i think a big bunch of people here were pretty lucky that arma 2 got USK16

and i dont think this would be really needed for a realistic game ( I know you can debate about that and say "well this is how war looks like". There is even a thread for that)

so accurate simulation of falling bodies loosing their tension is good enough.

[Leon86 13]

Then I suggest you watch this:

Actual footage shot in afghanistan

What, the round hits and then they fly away in a random direction? I dont know if this is raw footage but if it is I doubt it's a standard .50 cal round. Either that or the laws of physics dont apply in afghanistan.

[dmarkwick 261]

What, the round hits and then they fly away in a random direction? I dont know if this is raw footage but if it is I doubt it's a standard .50 cal round. Either that or the laws of physics dont apply in afghanistan.

It's kinetic energy taking the path of least resistance :)

[gammadust 12]

We do not only need ragdolls... apparently.

I am not sure I like where this is going.

I LIKE the false impression of L4D.

[Iroquois Pliskin 0]

It's kinetic energy taking the path of least resistance :)

Depending on the density of the object, and I assume pigs to be packed with meat, a .50 calibre bullet doesn't necessarily have to go through the tissue without a hick, in fact, it might tumble inside the cavity and then you wouldn't have the pointed tip transferring the energy, but a larger, asymmetric area of the bullet driving the motion seen in the video. ;)

[wamingo 1]

That video was debunked years ago. Those aren't humans, let alone taliban... They're small critters. Nothing more.

Making small things splatter is easy enough. Making whole humans fly is another matter entirely.

[rangerpl 13]

It's not about getting shot, it's about being hit with large-caliber weapons. You WILL catch air if you are hit with a large enough projectile.

Or your pieces might anyway.

[no use for a name 0]

Then I suggest you watch this:

Actual footage shot in afghanistan

Wow..people WILL believe everything they see on the internet!! LOL you seriously think those were real people? Not to mention that probably wasn't even a .50 cal as I've shot those same exact animals with a .223 hollow point and had similar results. A .50 would probably disintegrate them and the rocks

[purepassion 22]

Those are of course not humans, but as you said a 50cal would produce similar results with a real human

[AlexVestin 24]

00:50, that vid. Why would they, if they are actual humans getting shot, run around on all fours, in the mountains?

(Not real people getting shot with a ".50cal".)

[walker 0]

Hi all

Then I suggest you watch this:

Actual footage shot in afghanistan

The Video is of little furry critters.

I can believe all of you actually fell for it.

Still it is an excellent example of why ragdoll splatter is Hollywood reality not real reality.

It is from somewhere called varmint safari.

If you want to see what a real 50 Calibre round does do a search on YouTube for "Hog 50 cal" You are lucky that your post was not really from Afghanistan as you would have broken the forum rules by posting the link.

As some one said to me a long time ago "Targets fall when shot" that is all, other than a bit of twitching; which can on occasions be quite violent and prolonged, even bits of life do not give up easily.

On the matter of the poll as I said earlier.

Hi DMarkwick

It is not that I am against experimentation or innovation.

Once again, if you care to look back in my history with regard to modding the various versions of the RV engine, you will see that I have been involved in several firsts in the RV engine.

It is that I understand the computational and programming cost of Ragdoll. It consumes a lot of these resources and if a game producer like BIS has not the courage to ignore the Masses because they are always right.

Yeh Right!

Then you get a game like Codies Drech.

I spent a lot of time telling people to do the math on that, they ignored it until they were almost at release only to have to drop most of its functionality, all because of the wrong choice of an overly burdensome physics engine.

The Mass of people are no always right. If the mass of people were right we would never have discovered the world was flat or that the earth moves round the sun etc. Because in each of those cases the Masses thought the world was flat and the sun went round the earth and on down through the history of discovery, innovation and invention.

I argue this, not because it is making me friends, because clearly it is not, but because I have actually looked into it and done the math and come to the conclusion that as our understanding of physics stands and with the technology available it cannot work in MP. And Believe me when I say I do monitor this and try to keep up with innovations in it, but i have seen an awful lot of we have Ragdoll working in MP claims only to find that they were not.

As I said I think the concept of using a single point particle physics has some validity though I would do all in my power to simplify and refine it so as to reduce its load on an RV engine cycle.

As to full ragdoll it is non deterministic. I suspect the people involved with VBS are arguing against it as it would break the AAR and would never pass VV&A.

I do see a validity in increasing the number of death animations to say somewhere in the region of 200 plus also that some of them should end in postures similar to those adopted by live entities. Some knelt with gun deaths would be useful as would some laid with gun pointing as if sniping. Eg if shot in those positions then death should reflect that.

And I see the use of a ragdoll physics virtual Motion capture studio to supplement the number of death animations as a sensible use of resources especially if trying to mass produce death animations.

BUT as you can see despite: insults, screaming fits and making many upset; I still remain to be convinced that ragdoll can be achieved using our current technology and under our current understanding of real world physics.

Kind Regards walker

And that remains my position.

To DMarkwick I read your most recent post in reply to my arguments with interest, but mostly you were just re-hashing over the old ground, just as you rightly point out I am. As I said already I see merritt in single point physics used for death scenes as I suggested based off the human center of gravity, rather than your suggestion of the torso; so that it looks more realistic but I would rather use GPU and CPU resources on the more important aspects of the game, than in bouncing limbs, that could be more easily and better done with animation.

If I was Marek and Suma I would use a ragdoll physics engine to do a mass of motion capture for 100s of animations:

http://essay.utwente.nl/57579/1/scriptie_Nusman.pdf

animate it using a proprietary BIS animation system and call it "Real Virtuality improved ragdoll animation"

The marketing people can even say its got "Improved Ragdoll" in it, or "Now with Improved Ragdoll!"

No one would spot the difference.

Certainly not any one who mistakes small furry animals for people.

Once Again Kind Regards walker

Edited May 27, 2011 by walker
grammar

[dmarkwick 261]

Hi all

The Video is of little furry critters.

I can believe all of you actualy fell for it.

No-one called those videos as human targets Walker, that assumption is yours. The very detail that they're Youtube and posted here reveals that. The point of them being that things when hit, display almost random kinetics. Wayching President Kennedy get shot displays the same effect.

Edited May 26, 2011 by DMarkwick

[gammadust 12]

Thanks to you walker... we have now a fraction of milimiter thick dry red stain on the floor of this thread...

no worries, I will mind the holy grains on my way out.

[froggyluv 2133]

Well perhaps they'll be a fuller ragdoll system for singleplayer and a modified "improved ragoll-like-ish animation via Walker's math" for multiplayer.

We'll all find out around June 6th for the E3 convention I presume -that is unless Spock meets anti-matter Spock beforehand leading to a cosmic implosion back into the proverbial singularity.

Edited May 26, 2011 by froggyluv

[soul_assassin 1745]

Hi all

The Video is of little furry critters.

I can believe all of you actually fell for it.

Still it is an excellent example of why ragdoll splatter is Hollywood reality not real reality.

It is from somewhere called varmint safari.

If you want to see what a real 50 Calibre round does do a search on YouTube for "Hog 50 cal" You are lucky that your post was not really from Afghanistan as you would have broken the forum rules by posting the link.

As some one said to me a long time ago "Targets fall when shot" that is all, other than a bit of twitching; which can on occasions be quite violent and prolonged, even bits of life do not give up easily.

On the matter of the poll as I said earlier.

And that remains my position.

To DMarkwick I read your most recent post in reply to my arguments with interest, but mostly you were just re-hashing over the old ground, just as you rightly point out I am. As I said already I see merritt in single point physics used for death scenes as I suggested based off the human center of gravity, rather than your suggestion of the torso; so that it looks more realistic but I would rather use GPU and CPU resources on the more important aspects of the game, than in bouncing limbs, that could be more easily and better done with animation.

If I was Marek and Suma I would use a ragdoll physics engine to do a mass of motion capture for 100s of animations:

http://essay.utwente.nl/57579/1/scriptie_Nusman.pdf

animate it using a proprietary BIS animation system and call it "Real Virtuality improved ragdoll animation"

The marketing people can even say its got "Improved Ragdoll" in it, or "Now with Improved Ragdoll!"

No one would spot the difference.

Certainly not any one who mistakes small furry animals for people.

Once Again Kind Regards walker

That pdf is written by Daan Nusman who says hes the co owner of Re-Lion who just happen to be the VBS2 guys in NL.

[Iroquois Pliskin 0]

Well perhaps they'll be a fuller ragdoll system for singleplayer and a modified "improved ragoll-like-ish animation via Walker's math" for multiplayer.

We'll all find out around June 6th for the E3 convention I presume -that is unless Spock meets anti-matter Spock beforehand leading to a cosmic implosion back into the proverbial singularity.

You know, this ARG game turned out quite nice. Time flies, 12 days left.

[froggyluv 2133]

^^

Hehe, yep -it had just about the best ending any BI-fan dreamer could hope for.

Something struck me from that pdf

While sending limp ragdolls down sets of stairs is certainly a lot of fun, the next step is to actuate the

ragdoll with the motion capture data. This means having the limbs of the physics engine roughly take the

orientation of the motion capture data. This can be done in several ways. First, it is possible to directly set

each limb in the correct orientation. The major downside of this approach is that it mostly disables natural

physics interaction with the ragdoll and the rest of the environment

This is what I could never articulate but just felt was missing. The avatars in Arma always felt somewhat seperate from the rest of the Arma world. Meaning, obviously theres no rag-doll to fall down stairs etc... but objects seem to be on a different plane then avatars and their deaths seem theatrically delayed (opposite of hollywood ragdoll I suppose).

A car hits an avatar -he flies but the two don't seem connected as the body flies rigid. An avatar goes to prone and peeks thru walls as animation takes priotrity to natural laws; the infamous avatar running straight thru fences with a small hole on bottom; a bullet hits an avatar with only a red puff but no natural body reaction (flinch,stagger etc...)

Alls I can say is thak god physics are coming even if only at a moderately improved level!

[CyclonicTuna 87]

What, the round hits and then they fly away in a random direction? I dont know if this is raw footage but if it is I doubt it's a standard .50 cal round. Either that or the laws of physics dont apply in afghanistan.

It doesn't fly off in a random direction, it all depends on where the round hits. It only looks like that because of the camera angle and because its from a distance.

---------- Post added at 09:03 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:46 AM ----------

Next to that, I don't know why you are talking about Hogs all the time, but last time I played Arma I didn't come across any hogs with bodyarmor and rifles. They have a totally diffrent bonestruture then humans and actually take a lot more punishment from bullits if I have to beleive what the video you told me to go watch showed.

Hi all

The Video is of little furry critters.

I can believe all of you actually fell for it.

Still it is an excellent example of why ragdoll splatter is Hollywood reality not real reality.

It is from somewhere called varmint safari.

If you want to see what a real 50 Calibre round does do a search on YouTube for "Hog 50 cal" You are lucky that your post was not really from Afghanistan as you would have broken the forum rules by posting the link.

As some one said to me a long time ago "Targets fall when shot" that is all, other than a bit of twitching; which can on occasions be quite violent and prolonged, even bits of life do not give up easily.

On the matter of the poll as I said earlier.

And that remains my position.

To DMarkwick I read your most recent post in reply to my arguments with interest, but mostly you were just re-hashing over the old ground, just as you rightly point out I am. As I said already I see merritt in single point physics used for death scenes as I suggested based off the human center of gravity, rather than your suggestion of the torso; so that it looks more realistic but I would rather use GPU and CPU resources on the more important aspects of the game, than in bouncing limbs, that could be more easily and better done with animation.

If I was Marek and Suma I would use a ragdoll physics engine to do a mass of motion capture for 100s of animations:

http://essay.utwente.nl/57579/1/scriptie_Nusman.pdf

animate it using a proprietary BIS animation system and call it "Real Virtuality improved ragdoll animation"

The marketing people can even say its got "Improved Ragdoll" in it, or "Now with Improved Ragdoll!"

No one would spot the difference.

Certainly not any one who mistakes small furry animals for people.

Once Again Kind Regards walker

You know whats funny, everybody being so upset about what I said that they actually missed what I said.

Okay, so maybe the video wasn't real war footage, but I NEVER said then when shot by a 50 caliber sniper round PEOPLE would fly throught the air. I said, it can SEPIRATE LIMBS witch could ten FLING OFF. A .50 BMG as used in the Browning machine gun and sniper rifles like the M107 produces 10.000 up to 15.000 footpounds of energy, if that hits you in the shoulderjoint or in the kneejoint it WILL come off.

Next to that, I don't know why you are talking about Hogs all the time, but last time I played Arma I didn't come across any hogs with bodyarmor and rifles. They have a totally diffrent bonestruture then humans and actually take a lot more punishment from bullits if I have to beleive what the video you told me to go watch showed.

Edited May 27, 2011 by CyclonicTuna

[rye1 21]

It could hit a ligament and it could cause this to happen, correct. It could also fracture bone.

"If you want to see what a real 50 Calibre round does do a search on YouTube for "Hog 50 cal" You are lucky that your post was not really from Afghanistan as you would have broken the forum rules by posting the link."

Animal anatomy is so way different to humans. I have seen this video you talk of, it is all through-and-through from close range, the same with the deer one where it runs around for 20 meters before dropping. As you see, it's heart works really fast and running doesn't help - it bleeds out rapidly and soon drops as it's muscles seize up - no energy to move from that position - it dies there within less than a minute.

The hog one is the same! They die very quickly, one has it's internal digestive system on the outside, it does not last long. These are very short periods of time, and from a gameplay perspective - the AI being "combat effective" is a big one to look at about this also; "fight or flight".... or die.

They have a different threshold and understanding to what humans do. All you can post up on information with humans is stories that may or may not be true. There are a lot of misconceptions.

Whatever the animation or ragdoll effect - it should stick to Newtons law of motion.

P.S. That is not Afghanistan, that was hunters with a .50 cal. These are videos of prairie dog hunts......... It was an internet hoax. http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-chat/2225048/posts. The shots were taken from around 300 meters, I know people who have seen the original with all the audio and video footage, just a couple of hunters, type in google about .50 cal afghanistan video hoax.

Edited May 27, 2011 by Rye
Error.

[Primarch 10]

I didn't read the thread but I will answer to the title. Yes I want ragdoll effects. Got a problem with that? Buy a new computer since they are not processor heavy. It saves up BIS to give more emphasis on the weapon animations.

[maddogx 13]

Well, the oh so impossible Laaaaaaaaaagdoll physics were just confirmed by Ivan Buchta at E3 and shown in-game. :D

Looked pretty sweet, despite the low video stream quality.

[walker 0]

Hi MadDogX

I refer you to my previous post ;)

Kind Regards walker