Stealth Kills?

[Variable 322]

But the one thing that bugs me would be the amount of people on the PC platform that somehow think they are better than console gamers. You are not, you enjoy the same hobby so get over yourself and be more accepting.

It's not the same hobby, and I refuse to be accepting the dogmas and expectations of people who enjoy childish, unrealistic games, because they threaten to destroy a game which is not.

Stop with the COD bashing as well for crying out loud. It's actually a decent series

It's not a decent series. It's the reallity TV equivalent in the gaming world; Shallow, unintelligent, aims for the lowest common denominator, and stupid.

At least they have most of the bugs sorted out!

Like it's even hard with the limited scope of this games.

Masterfragg

I rest my case :)

Edited March 23, 2013 by Variable

[jake_krieger 10]

I agree to implement such feature , especially because it would just open up many more possibilities for Mission and mod makers.

If such melee feature would be implmented from the begining there would be no need to create a half-assed and bugged melee system like it is to find in the DayZ-Mod.

[Dallas 9]

I'm really pleased that ArmA is standing out from the generic modern day shooters, which all follow an identical FPS recipe and they all include the made-for-console scripted quick time events, press X now to automatically stealth kill. People are a lot more resilient and hand to hand is always unpredictable and messy. You don't simply snap bad guys necks like-a-chicken and knives aren't instant and perfectly silent.

ArmA simply has another focus, they attempt to getting close to realism, rather than on Hollywood fantasies about omg what would delta do gameplay. There are plenty of games, well if not everyone else than ArmA, that offers these so called cinematic experiences.

ArmA is ArmA is ArmA.

Edited March 23, 2013 by Dallas

[ImNatic 1]

Agreed.

[Fuse 1]

But the one thing that bugs me would be the amount of people on the PC platform that somehow think they are better than console gamers. You are not, you enjoy the same hobby so get over yourself and be more accepting.

I agree with the attitude of PC gamers being pretty shitty. I don't want to game with the average console gamer, I've done that and hated it, but that doesn't mean everyone who owns a console isn't worthy of experiencing gaming at its finest: on the PC. I have a lot of friends who weren't nerds growing up and so they didn't have a gaming PC in the 90s. Now they can afford to build their own PC and are enjoying gaming like they never experienced. The elitist attitude of PC gamers only makes people less likely to try PC gaming and see the light. It ends up with camps of "us" and "them" that are so personally invested in the argument that playing on a different platform would be like rooting for the other sports team. (That all may sound like elitism, but I honestly think the PC is the better platform, for many very quantifiable reasons. I also own consoles and enjoy gaming on them at times and wouldn't look down on someone just for playing on them.)

Stop with the COD bashing as well for crying out loud. It's actually a decent series if you buy every OTHER game, otherwise it is just the same ol' same ol' year in year out. AND! At least they have most of the bugs sorted out!

Still waiting for some Arma2/OA bugs to be fixed lol although Arma is a superior game for me as I enjoy it more.

And here is where our views diverge. CoD was a good series. MW 1 is a good game, but they didn't support it properly with patches and bug fixes after launch. Every title since then has been derivative, watered-down crap with lots of rewards thrown in your face to make you feel like you've accomplished something. I'll still sit down and play MW1 with a friend, and the old titles are still some of the better multiplayer shooters released on PC, but the new games are worse than a waste of money; buying them perpetuates the degradation of gaming that the current console generation has caused. Call of Duty now is just a flashy Skinner box.

It is good to hear they have finally gotten most of the bugs sorted out. It only took them re-releasing the same game, what, five times? I wouldn't boast about that. :j: The fact that common known issues in the Unreal engine not only made it to release but persisted across multiple titles, and there are bugs that have never been patched in MW 1&2, is shameful. Last I checked (maybe nearly a year at this point) the ACOG still didn't work in MW 1 or 2. I can't remember which it was broken in, maybe both.

Edited March 24, 2013 by Fuse
Added ( ) section after 1st paragraph, trying to explain why I'm not just being a PC elitist. lol

[mmaruda 20]

It's not about cinematic experience, it's about simulating what is possible in real life. You can kill someone with a knife IRL as you can jump, dual wield pistols and other things. Just because some people associate these things with CoD for some reason, does not mean they are arcade. The main difference between your average FPS and Arma is that ArmA features realistic ballistics, has non-scripted AI and freedom of play. CoD is a about running and shooting stuff full auto - if you do that in Arma, you will die and not hit anything. Adding stealth kills will not change Arma into CoD. Also, there is the freedom of play thing - if you want to play the way this has been played before, you are able to, but I don't see why people who want have some stealth infiltration missions, silently kill targets, drag bodies out of site etc. cannot have their way of playing because, someone else feel this threatens their way of having fun - it won't. You still will be able to enjoy Arma the same way you enjoyed previous instalments. Hell, make all the things considered "arcade" optional. Crosshairs are arcade but noone seems to complain about that... Oh wait, you can turn them off. Riiiight...

And stop it with the CoD comparisons already, this is not an adult way of arguing. People use that poor game as an easy way to justify anything they do not like. Let's remove the weapon attachments - they are in CoD right?

[rye1 21]

SWAT games where even more focused towards CQB and never needed it.

SWAT 4 had melee. It was aimed specifically at dynamic entry - the whole game was modeled around getting in the fight, only to take the person down non-lethally with tazers and CS gas. When a suspect didn't comply, what did you do? You either shouted really loudly, gave them another lethal dose of voltage or punched them. If you did all this, you got 100/100.

So it's possible to kill the whole base of enemies with nobody noticing that their friends get missing in suspiciously high numbers?

Possible but you have to limit the happening. You do this by developing it in a way that it's rarer of use. It's like the haymaker in some of the latest boxing games. It used to be able to be done every second punch, now it's that rare you can get it only twenty times in a whole twelve round match. If you look at I44 as an example with bayonets, you didn't use them every firefight - it was specific.

Your quote, that's time related and scripting related. Even more in detailed, mission maker related - it's called a trigger. That's nothing to do with in-game implementation. What do AI do when they see bodies in game now? GO TO ALERT. What do you do if you want a QRF in after a certain time? Set a trigger to the group.

Well then I want to hear your expertise, a guy who thinks that crawling unnoticed at day time 1m away from enemies is something that's possible IRL. What are those techniques to cutting out the whole base of patrolling enemies with a single knife strike per each?

Again, this is the typical answer from you. I never said any of that or want any of that, so I'm not even going to bother.

Why do we even need guns if knives are so magnificently effective at killing everything 100% silent?

Again, nobody said that either. You just read into it what you want. ;) Oh yeah and don't define stealth or silent while you're at it.

Because that's obviously a better argument. Hahahaha.

I suggest you read this thread's title then.

I suggest you realize there's subconcepts and therefore sub-arguments for each overall topic. 'Stealth kill', the overwhelming concept in the OP's statement is melee so as irrelevant as you'd like to make it out to be, it's actually better to talk about more than just the topic title - implementing melee, without the one-button kill animation would mean it would be used for more than just 'stealth kills'. And if we were arguing for 'stealth kills' only, be it one-button COD-types, then it would be a short argument because I wouldn't be arguing, I'd be agreeing.

That's a great example of a stealth kill.

Can you read or even relate to your prior argument?

You argued not only on your version of undefined stealth but on your version of undefined melee itself.

To which the reply included:

If we shove 'stealth' out of the mix then it opens up a number of situations where it has happened..

It being melee, as is the example being a recent melee situation in Afghanistan. Relevant, you think? Of course not to Metalcraze, he'll just argue 'it nevarrr hapen irl, truzt mi. Oh yer n knifez sumthin kil wun thusnd ppl.'

Yeah that strangle must have been very stealthy lol. You are just proving yourself wrong.

Same with you, you should read and interpret. Define stealthy, oh yeah and define melee while you're at it. I didn't know melee meant 100% anything.

"The variable of stealth, or being unnoticed/not caught, will never happen in combat involving melee weaponry or hand-to-hand fighting" is your argument. Nice at proving yourself right with all that evidence and knowledge on the subject.

You're the same guy that states something 'childish and unrealistic' without the thought of implementation, instead jumps straight to "It'll be like COD." Since when has anything ever in ARMA been close to those crappy games? No one here wants that, and those who do are heavily opposed.

You have to realize the implementation concepts aren't focused on insta-kills. Read back and you'll see many ideas, some of which could be turned into proof of concept. And also you have to realize we all agree COD/MOH/BF is unrealistic, but arguing that ARMA implementation will be also just proves you haven't thought about it objectively, as expected a subjective bias argument that states what wasn't said.

[Lucasmnunesk 2]

Yeah, i was wrong about SWAT, never owned the game but played with my friends long time ago, but still i don't think there is a way implement melee combat in the game, the rifle bash is cool.

Whoever wants to see the melee stealth kills should show their ideas of how to implement it instead of arguing with other why it should or not, if you have a good ideia that would really work, i think the developers would give it attention.

[TheGamingBluejay 1]

This is just me, and I'm no military professional so don't get all matter of fact on me, but if I was thrown into a war and I came up behind someone, I'd just shoot them. I wouldn't risk something Hollywood because there's a good chance unlike the movies the guy on the receiving end would fight back and not just give you puppydog eyes like they do in Battlefield.

And from a science perspective: how would you even kill someone that fast? Assuming you stab them in the neck...they're still functional-you'd think they'd get a few shots into you before they go. But I've never killed anyone so I couldn't know for sure ;)

[zodd 14]

Definitely possible to do (relatively) silent takedowns - impart shock before enemy can react. Not a standard skill but definitely possible... so in the interest of (temporarily) satisfying people that want it...

http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?151500-COMPLETE-Very-simple-silent-takedown-script-(ZOD_STAKEDOWN)

edit: if people actually want to use this I have a few other ideas to throw in to better simulate it... A lot of work though so this is a quick 90% solution.

If anyone IS legitimately interested in a further developed silent takedown script I can play around with it more. (also I am sure there are MUCH better scripters than me out there that can make a lot better stuff quickly!)

Edited March 24, 2013 by Zodd

[rye1 21]

This is just me, and I'm no military professional so don't get all matter of fact on me, but if I was thrown into a war and I came up behind someone, I'd just shoot them. I wouldn't risk something Hollywood because there's a good chance unlike the movies the guy on the receiving end would fight back and not just give you puppydog eyes like they do in Battlefield.

And from a science perspective: how would you even kill someone that fast? Assuming you stab them in the neck...they're still functional-you'd think they'd get a few shots into you before they go. But I've never killed anyone so I couldn't know for sure ;)

You're not accounting for anything. "Just shoot them" I assume with suppressor, with subsonic ammunition? I'd shoot them too given the chance, risk ratio is weighed up per situation though. There's many variables you happen to skip by because that's a very general statement. If I threw in a few variables I wonder if that answer would change?

Your second question, time for stabbing to death depends on variables such as the type of knife, type of cut, depth, anatomical location.

See below, "Fairbairn's Timetable of Death."

[nodunit 397]

Perhaps therein lies the problem with the way knife kills are presented in games...Far Cry 3 being a perfect example, you sneak up, knife the guy and its instantly over. You don't have to hold your hand tightly over his mouth to muffle his noise or to ensure his death, just a quick 1 second stab and its done, no muss no fuss.

But why not also non lethal measures such as strangelling with a bit of rope or wire? What if there is a mission to incapacitate but not kill?

Edited March 24, 2013 by NodUnit

[zodd 14]

http://combation.com/7-5-techniques/

[nodunit 397]

Oh! What if the targets situational awareness acted as a damage multiplier?

With frontal, close, aware, take something like 10-12 hits to kill them from the front, while behind, close, unaware, 1 hit.

could even spice it up and add a sense of skill by making the players aim matter by having to try aim for key points such as the neck for a jugular hit, not some "staring at back, hits in throat" and none of that silly 'died because I was stabbed in toe' 1 hit nonsense.

If you did get into a face to face knife fight, the damage could be based on where you hit, similar to where you shoot, and it could be complimented by an armor system! Think about it, here you have the choice to take extra armor, you couldn't be able to run or move as fast, you wouldn't be able to jump or vault as high (if ever added which could compliment the system as well) BUT your vital organs would be protected from any damage of the knife. And the lack of 1 hit kills, or swift kill for that matter would deter many people from using a knife in a gun fight as an option.

At first I thought "knives, blah" but then I realized, I was thinking of knives in the typical fps fashion that we've come to know, and I think that is why many people are against it..not because they are against Arma expanding but because of how it has been executed, with a fear of the same repeating. Knives themselves aren't the problem, the way they have been implemented is.

Edited March 24, 2013 by NodUnit

[rye1 21]

If only hit detection was that good... You'd have to change the wounding system. That wouldn't just be based on a value attached to the weapon or magazine. Combine it with a bleeding system and you have a better way of implementation. But... again it comes down to detecting damage then how that damage is transferred to player. Currently it's a detection of hit, which can be pretty inaccurate, and 'dispersing' that on the whole body. If you get shot in the head, your legs get some amount of damage for example. AFAIK that's the way it works currently anyway, I don't know about what changes ARMA 3 has made in that regard.

[PFC Magician 10]

one word "backstab" this feature will work even in pvp

[nodunit 397]

If only hit detection was that good... You'd have to change the wounding system. That wouldn't just be based on a value attached to the weapon or magazine. Combine it with a bleeding system and you have a better way of implementation. But... again it comes down to detecting damage then how that damage is transferred to player. Currently it's a detection of hit, which can be pretty inaccurate, and 'dispersing' that on the whole body. If you get shot in the head, your legs get some amount of damage for example. AFAIK that's the way it works currently anyway, I don't know about what changes ARMA 3 has made in that regard.

Bleeding is already in, I don't know if it is the dev build or what but I got shot and after some running began to notice I was leaving a trail of blood. Further evidence by "isBleeding" here forums.bistudio.com/poll.php?do=pollvote&pollid=607

The damage I could live with depending on the severity, if you get stabbed in the neck chances are you won't be needing your legs anyway.

I don't think back stabbing will work as well for aware players like it does in BF or counter strike for sure..whereas CSS the goal is to dance around your enemy to stab them, I don't feeel that Arma 3 offers that same movement fidelity, though all the more reason to tie it to the "aware" state so that if a player is aware a backstab won't get hem. And again if you're wearing armor then you'd effectively be protected from getting knifed in the chest or back.

[max power 21]

http://combation.com/7-5-techniques/

A few of those techniques look like the rely one quite a few assumptions.

[PFC Magician 10]

I don't think back stabbing will work as well for aware players like it does in BF or counter strike for sure..whereas CSS the goal is to dance around your enemy to stab them, I don't feeel that Arma 3 offers that same movement fidelity, though all the more reason to tie it to the "aware" state so that if a player is aware a backstab won't get hem. And again if you're wearing armor then you'd effectively be protected from getting knifed in the chest or back.

backstab = attack from behind, i will not discuss the right way to implement (knife or broken neck) Any player who is focused on scope reticle would be vulnerable to an attack from behind

although I have to agree about the movement, but there are many situations and maps community where could be implemented

[rye1 21]

A few of those techniques look like the rely one quite a few assumptions.

The "Belgian take-down" certainly does. I laughed that one off.

[cross888 10]

*Siiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiigh*

@Mac

Our Reservist infantry guys get taught sentry killing with knifes.

It is practiced on operations by some fellows in black-tape wearing units I MO I've seen it done. Lads from TF42 were sentry killing in the mountains around Breman and Baharam Chah in Helmand province because on Knight strike Op's they were coming through the hills killing sleeping Taliban sentrys. Admittedly Most units don't use knifes for sentry killing as its not in our spectrum of warfare but the sneaky beaky warrirors have done it.

In 2006-2008 UK forces were fixing bayonets when operating in the Greenzone and Built up areas because of the nature of fighting there was Close Quarters Battle so I'd like to see something of the sort in ARMA, even if its just for checking that the bad dudes are dead by sticking your net in to there throat or something.

As for actual sentry killing there is ways for killing an opponent that are deemed quite effective for example we were taught push the head forward and stick your knife in to the base of the skill, kutting the spines connection to the brain scrambling the lower brain (Medulla Oblongata) and effectively killing your enemy instantly. I'm sure the armchair warriors with no real military experience can have a dig thou.

So that's my argument presented I'd like to see bayonets and possible sentry killing in the game maybe on a module? I don't know, but like somebody said actual sentry killing scenarios are few and far between unless your a death from above SF Demon. Bayonets however will always have a place in general warfare :)

Thanks.

PS I don't play PVP So I'm not to worryed about being Ganked by some parachuting Ninja with a bowie Knife :)

[wipman 1]

Hi, IMO the "Behind Enemy Lines" mission is the typical mission (on the BIS games) where you meet the Resistance; i wouldn't spect any any more stealth than is already possible and i would forget about any kind of knife/melee attack from BIS. They could do a stock attack animation that works pushing LMB just when you're in contact with an NME unit, it would not do any damage, just drop the NME to the ground so you can shoot him/her before the target stands up, it could be done with the pistol too... a strong hit on the left side of the neck, and PAM PAM PAM, three shots and bye. Let's C ya

[PN11A 2]

Based on this post I can tell how many of you played SOCOM US NAVY SEAL on playstation, welcome to ARMA lol

[Mac 1]

*Siiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiigh*

@Mac

Our Reservist infantry guys get taught sentry killing with knifes.

It is practiced on operations by some fellows in black-tape wearing units I MO I've seen it done. Lads from TF42 were sentry killing in the mountains around Breman and Baharam Chah in Helmand province because on Knight strike Op's they were coming through the hills killing sleeping Taliban sentrys. Admittedly Most units don't use knifes for sentry killing as its not in our spectrum of warfare but the sneaky beaky warrirors have done it.

In 2006-2008 UK forces were fixing bayonets when operating in the Greenzone and Built up areas because of the nature of fighting there was Close Quarters Battle so I'd like to see something of the sort in ARMA, even if its just for checking that the bad dudes are dead by sticking your net in to there throat or something.

As for actual sentry killing there is ways for killing an opponent that are deemed quite effective for example we were taught push the head forward and stick your knife in to the base of the skill, kutting the spines connection to the brain scrambling the lower brain (Medulla Oblongata) and effectively killing your enemy instantly. I'm sure the armchair warriors with no real military experience can have a dig thou.

So that's my argument presented I'd like to see bayonets and possible sentry killing in the game maybe on a module? I don't know, but like somebody said actual sentry killing scenarios are few and far between unless your a death from above SF Demon. Bayonets however will always have a place in general warfare :)

Thanks.

PS I don't play PVP So I'm not to worryed about being Ganked by some parachuting Ninja with a bowie Knife :)

You misunderstand what Im trying to say. Obviously you train to kill with a knife. Im not against having the ability to use a knife to kill someone. However, I am against this being a silent option. I dont want to see some far cry takedown garbage that would ruin gameplay because thats not how things happen. You dont stab someone once and they drop like a bag of dirt. It will be loud, messy and painfull for both parties. So stealth kills = no thanks

[Arcani 1]

I think we're missing the point.

Stealth kills-

These are before the actual combat begins, maybe with some scouts or in small team missions. These would primarily be for sentries or the enemies scouts.

How to keep silent: you come up behind them, assuming the target is either tired, bored or making enough noise so the killer is passed unnoticed. You go up to them and cover their mouth and then slit their throat. Not the easiest thing in real life or in a simulation as good as Arma, but still possible if the killer has the skill and the target is slightly unawares.

CQC-

This is when the actual combat has started. NO ONE is saying that there will be people doing 360 knifing bullshit because you can't do that in Arma, if you tried it you would get shot down before you reached them. HOWEVER, if you're going from room to room in a city/base attack, you might come up on someone really fast. In that case, if you have a bayonet fixed you can run them through with a yell, shooting them for good measure, if you don't have a bayonet fixed you might try to club them with your stock. ASSUME that your first impulse is to grapple with someone when you meet them face to face (which coincidentally it is), then you'll try to charge them with your bayonet, hit them over the head, and then shoot them.