Stealth Kills?

[kylania 567]

Funny cos' I have. And do you seriously think this kind of feature would be implemented without tweaking the stealth system? It'll happen in close proximity battles, house clearing. But, yes, it's mainly a utility tool, we all know this.

It's an emergency solution not primary or secondary.

But forget the knife, employing stealth kills or any kind of quick takedown (if it didn't turn out so stealhy), could you? Would you? If the opportunity arose then yes.

The problem is the kids asking for knives don't want to be able to realistically take down a sentry at night without getting any attention. They want to be able to get 50 kill knife death streaks in pvp. They also wanna bunny hop and be able to fire rockets from their finger tips I bet.

They are basically not ArmA players but BFoons and bored CoD players waiting for the next DLC by trolling here. :)

If you want to add a "Knife Sentry" animation and action menu option that only appears if it's dark out and you're standing behind a target undetected, then sure I'd be all for it. But a knife as a weapon and wasting development time on a creating a melee system instead of other features? No thanks.

[metalcraze 290]

But forget the knife, employing stealth kills or any kind of quick takedown (if it didn't turn out so stealhy), could you? Would you? If the opportunity arose then yes.

What takedown is quicker than putting a bullet into enemy's head?

The problem is the kids asking for knives don't want to be able to realistically take down a sentry at night without getting any attention. They want to be able to get 50 kill knife death streaks in pvp. They also wanna bunny hop and be able to fire rockets from their finger tips I bet.

Exactly.

In this game there's 0.0000001% chance you'll ever find a knife useful for killing. Even if sometimes it happened that the enemy was in the "kissing range" - you still spend less time shooting him than going for your knife and who knows if you'll ever hit them with a knife in such way that he won't pop your head open with his gun.

Everyone understands that. BF kidz understand that a realistic implementation of a knife is useless very well too.

What they want is Hollywood Stealth where enemies always face the other direction and refuse to acknowledge 20 KGs of gear making noise and getting closer to them from behind

I doubt BIS will implement it though. For BIS it will be like shooting themselves in a leg.

Edited August 13, 2011 by metalcraze

[rye1 21]

Then people keep throwing the old question "Oh What will you do if you run out of ammo?"

Well, for one, I

Yes that's you. Not anyone else. It's not just out of ammo but it's the 100 other things that can happen like jamming. You're back-up is other weapons found which may not be a likely scenario in all situations.

Everyone has their auxiliary ammunition and if that's gone they may have another back-up which may be a weapon that not everybody agrees with. It's up to them.

---------- Post added at 04:32 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:30 PM ----------

What takedown is quicker than putting a bullet into enemy's head?

A takedown isn't made to kill anybody, and to answer your question none. It's not meant to be used as a primary, read carefully, it is not meant to be used as a primary.

[metalcraze 290]

OK Rye. Let's play it your way

Let's say BIS adds a knife and the knife-guy has it with him

And he gets 1 chance in a million to use it because by some miracle he ran out of ammo for both of his weapons, there is nobody around covering his back, there is only one enemy and he's up close to the knife-guy and he's armed.

The knife-guy goes for his knife. Then he slashes the enemy. And stabs him. But it makes no difference because the enemy stuffs the knife-guy with bullets regardless because the knife-guy doesn't instakill him with a knife (we are having a game trying to look realistic here remember?)

What will it make the knife-guy do?

Go on a forum crying about how knives are useless and BIS needs to fix them and enemies hear the knife-guy approaching them from 10m?

So what will it make you do?

You are forgetting why people want the knife in ArmA.

[Haystack15 10]

Yes that's you. Not anyone else. It's not just out of ammo but it's the 100 other things that can happen like jamming. You're back-up is other weapons found which may not be a likely scenario in all situations.

True, But Jamming doesn't happen in ARMA unless its scripted. And every game I've played never had that scripted in before. :p

You're back-up is other weapons found which may not be a likely scenario in all situations.

Been playing ARMA for 4 Years now, And it hasn't failed me yet. :yay:But please, explain to me here, How would it not always be in my opportunity to do so?

Edited August 13, 2011 by Haystack15

[rye1 21]

So what will it make you do?

It wouldn't make me do anything. If you're keeping it realistic as you say why would you complain about not being able to win a frontal battle with a man with a working and loaded weapon? It's a back-up not an angel of war. It can offer life threatening injuries but in that kind of attack it would have to be prolonged and as unrestrained as possible to keep unleashing. If you were hit then you were hit, you have little choice in some scenarios.

It's exactly the risk you take, and one of which may happen in close combat. It would really open up the cqb experience in Arma which is basically nil and poor at best, even if it wasn't implemented you'd see a whole lot of issues with the close combat system as of now when considering it.

Anyway this isn't all about knifes, its about stealth kills.

@Haystack

Sorry, had my ACE head on.

A prolonged engagement, one of which you had to break contact. You can't win every battle, nor scavenge in every scenario though if it can be done, go for it. I'm not saying it can't or it is a bad thing, I'm just saying it may not be feasable in all situations, e.g. close combat in a confined space, like anything else.

[Sniperwolf572 758]

.. it will probably make it easier for moders that will do things with close quarter attacks, like zombies or similar.

While I couldn't care less for knives and melee attacks in the context of ArmA3's setting, this is absolutely the best argument I've read for the inclusion of in-engine support for melee attacks in the entire thread. Moddability / options for mods that would actually need

. Edited August 13, 2011 by Sniperwolf572

[rye1 21]

Jeez, lead by example admin.

At least allowing a choke or neck break from behind. Heck, the knives on the models, if they pulled one out just to simply use it for an aimation like that and not actually to be used doing anything else would be great. Atleast open it up abit to stealth as the OP says.

[metalcraze 290]

It would really open up the cqb experience in Arma which is basically nil and poor at best, even if it wasn't implemented you'd see a whole lot of issues with the close combat system as of now when considering it.

Except it will open up nothing.

The scenario I gave as an example has a nil chance of happening.

If you are alone among enemies and ran out of ammo you are doing something wrong - and nobody will be in such situation unless deliberately wanting it to happen.

In cqb you will be killed faster by an enemy than you will even have a chance to wound him.

Why wasting time making animations that won't even look good (as you can slash at dude's neck but he will play the same animation of just getting hit regardless of a place you stab him at) unless you make a whole lot of them and synchronize to places of hits if such scenario will never happen for 95% of people?

Anyway this isn't all about knifes, its about stealth kills.

Yes except for people knife = stealth kill.

Take into account that people really will complain that knives don't instakill and aren't stealthy at all due to everything else but knife. Do you really want a forum spam akin to constant "baaaww AI killed me through a bush"?

At least allowing a choke or neck break from behind.

a) How are you going to get within that distance without being spotted?

b) How exactly are you going to implement that in other way but silly one-button-kill?

c) What makes you think choking the guy will stop him from making a lot of noise?

Reality man, reality.

Edited August 13, 2011 by metalcraze

[Sniperwolf572 758]

Jeez, lead by example admin.

At least allowing a choke or neck break from behind. Heck, the knives on the models, if they pulled one out just to simply use it for an aimation like that and not actually to be used doing anything else would be great. Atleast open it up abit to stealth as the OP says.

On these forums, regarding discussions like this, I like to believe my opinion has the same weight as anyone elses, no more, no less.

Having better engine support for melee and it being open to ninja, samurai, medieval, cavemen, zombie, WW1 mods to include melee does not mean it's magically not available for someone just to mod it into the current warfare context.

Reread my post and rethink what I'm actually saying there. ;)

[rye1 21]

Except it will open up nothing.

The scenario I gave as an example has a nil chance of happening.

If you are alone among enemies and ran out of ammo you are doing something wrong - and nobody will be in such situation unless deliberately wanting it to happen.

In cqb you will be killed faster by an enemy than you will even have a chance to wound him.

Why wasting time making animations that won't even look good (as you can slash at dude's neck but he will play the same animation of just getting hit regardless of a place you stab him at) unless you make a whole lot of them and synchronize to places of hits if such scenario will never happen for 95% of people?

a) How are you going to get within that distance without being spotted?

b) How exactly are you going to implement that in other way but silly one-button-kill?

c) What makes you think choking the guy will stop him from making a lot of noise?

You may be alone for multiple reasons, it isn't that black and white that no you wouldn't do this and no you wouldn't do that because it might full well happen. E.g. your partners shot when entering the room. You jam. Out of ammo. Have to reload. You'd open up all the flaws of CQB in Arma which hopefully would improve it, not necessarily add a melee system but expose the flaws of why things like this would be hard to implement therefore should be worked on.

Wasting time could be said about a number of features and I agree about prioritizing and I'm fully aware that this would be at the lowest level if any. In other case: anything related to it should be very much higher like cqb, animations.

People complain about everything, sometimes rightly so and sometimes not. Pretty sure BIS are used to it by now.

In cqb a lot of things can happen, it's about seizing the moment. Live or die, it's cqb for god sake, no one is bulletproof.

a) Terrain, restricted or slow movement, non-line of sight, simple ambush like a door ambush in close quarters. It depends on your enemy too, they may be on a radio, next to a loud object or whatever. Possibilities occur.

b) I didn't say I would but I've put up names of other games that did it quite well. I can't imagine BIS doing it without a simple close kill button or really reworked animation system thats flexible and not as static. We'll have to see what improvements have and will be made.

c) I didn't say that but if you've ever done martials arts (literally translates to 'war arts') it will teach you to control someone. If this is done with the element of surprise and a means to kill the enemy and not give them any chance then it can be done.

Reality is that some units (conventional) and most units (unconventional) train with these practices in mind. Anything from US Navy Seals in Ramadi to German MEK/SEK busting in a murderer's house. I've posted up the proof. I even know LE members that train for it, and I know many who carry knives and learn martial arts, just for the sake of arguement.

@Admin

Ok, I thought you were trolling more than anything but if part of the community wanted something like that then it would definitely open it up. No one can resist a flash ninja suit. :p

[PuFu 4591]

the stealth part in arma3 could easily have a second look. Like the AI in the same squad with the one you just shot not beeing able to pinpoint your exact location 2 seconds later..

But the stealth aspect involves a lot more than your beloved knife kill. I will say it again, i have nothing (and no one has) against it, as long as it would be properly implemented. Some fancy animation is far from solving the issue though. Moreso, there is colission, and the reaction of such an action to think of.

So crying out loud that such a feature is NEEDED, is just a child's behaviour, because in the end, it is not. Stop bringing the argument that soldiers train with knives, because the normal grunt will most likely fail miserably. I am sort of tired of aiming the discussion on those very special units that are able to handle the knife they carry in hairy situation.

[rye1 21]

Well obviously you've got the wrong idea of me. Someone was simply putting up an arguement against knives so I was discussing, or as you say 'bringing the arguement', that with them because they have a view of it that I don't understand, and a view a lot of people hold which I don't agree with. Arma 3's storyline goes along one of an unconventional unit behind enemy lines hence the idea and hence special units. I didn't say it was needed either, so no need to try belittle me for pointing out a few facts, whether you like them or not.

I hope it has a better look, you're spot on with probably the most annoying bug of the lot. Engine fixes before features, and AI fixes before features. If some of the key ingredients that put people off about close combat are worked on then maybe such a system will be feasable. We'll have to see.

[pathetic_berserker 4]

Sure, from a modder perspective, having such weapons already defined and available in the game would make my life a lot easier if i ever want to make, say a medieval mod. Even so, i would much rather have no such ability in the game, because i see no way to properly implement it (not even BF3 knife kills and corresponding animations would suffice for a proper stealth kill).

Thats about the sum of it. But Ill admit I'm a bit torn by this one. Though I have been in the situation of siting behind an enemy player on several occasions and wishing I could use a knife for a stealth kill and I can see it could certainly add a new layer of fun to some game modes I also have a slight aversion to it featuring in the core game. Anyone who is practiced at knife fighting or general melee combat should know that there is often a small bees dick margin of error, two hand fulls of possiibility, and the dice roll of gods in determining how the situation resolves. Clean stealth kills are ALMOST impossible in theoretical practice let alone on a batttlefield

If BIS could find away to leave the door open for it as an option, for say particular missions, game modes, mods, or just story telling I'd certainly have no objection, But more than just an option and think I just may tire of the idea.

[dysta 10]

I've got the idea, maybe not "instantly" achieve a kill or damage from the knife, but more like get into "Struggle Mode" when hostile is both spotted you and in melee range at the same time.

Think about it, the opponent suddenly push you down when you try to knife at his neck, you have to fight back and have to protect yourself from his counterattack. It's like a boxing competition in this situation, but the loser is dead in that case.

Maybe you all hating the "slash & score" style knife killing, so that's why I suggested the struggling melee.

[purepassion 22]

So you would make every knife attack into a minigame, is that right?

Edited August 13, 2011 by PurePassion

[PuFu 4591]

ohh, i see it now...press tringle/square/circle etc button when it shows on the screen...like this:

kPzy42tKHt0

NO ty

[purepassion 22]

ohhh and dont forget about the funny aiming mini game! :D seriously, why would you want to have something like this in a game like Arma 3?

[roberthammer 582]

oh man i hate that thing , press A to end game - it is like made for special kids

[dysta 10]

Yea, not a mini game, but more like TES4 style (still dead when attack from behind successfully) melee, I mean, if unable to struggle from failure you still can instantly pull out a sidearm or other weapon for better self-defense.

Something like, you try to stealth kill the target, and he suddenly turn around and stop you. If you force to stab at him he will instantly defend himself. When that happens, pull out a sidearm and make a loud kill would be better. (because you were spotted)

[dale0404 5]

Yea, not a mini game, but more like TES4 style (still dead when attack from behind successfully) melee, I mean, if unable to struggle from failure you still can instantly pull out a sidearm or other weapon for better self-defense.

Something like, you try to stealth kill the target, and he suddenly turn around and stop you. If you force to stab at him he will instantly defend himself. When that happens, pull out a sidearm and make a loud kill would be better. (because you were spotted)

Not exactly milsim realism though.

[dysta 10]

Not exactly milsim realism though.

Just a suggestion.

*sigh* Then we shouldn't invent a knife since it's "unrealistic" on REAL battlefield.

[Pulverizer 1]

How often do the Marines drive a hummer over a pack of insurgents in Iraq/Afghanistan, as if they were bowling pins? That shit happen all the time in "milsims" :p

Also, "stealth kills" with blunt force weapons and knives are very common IRL. Sure there's some noise, but way less than firing unsupressed weapons. (my point being, Arma isn't just about modern warfare between 1st world nations, rather a platform for all kinds of violent gameplay)

Edited August 13, 2011 by Pulverizer

[PuFu 4591]

The real issue is NOT knives as a weapon but their IMPLEMENTATION!...

[dysta 10]

The real issue is NOT knives as a weapon but their IMPLEMENTATION!...

Swiss Army and Chinese PLA will be proud with their Swiss knives. (Swiss knife did sold the copyright of product to China years ago)

Well, what could we do with a Swiss knife on a battlefield?