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Cookieeater

A view of ArmA II multiplayer from a TF2, CSS, BF2 player

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It already does, or would if there were missions that worked similarly and if people actually played them.

I bolded the most true, and important, and depressing for mission makers, part.

See what is played on 8BZ server. Their missions are just excellent, and sadly not enough played.

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client-side "download on demand" feat would be nice. use than in Ureal-engine-based games from U1 times w/o issues.

also option for "allow download necessary modifications/add-ons" in network browser setting can be handy[or in rest "setting"]

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Another solution, is create a little EXE/MSI (that automatically finds the source download, the users installation folder, automatically detects their profile name, edits the config accordingly,) to download the update automatically. With this solution, utilities how addonsync and SixUpdate lose their meaning, everything would be simpler.

Best Regards

I think that the SixUpdate carries an impressive number of features, but suffers because it tries to do everything. As D3lta notes a single small-application relevant only for a specific mod-- particularly for the larger more elaborate mods -- would be great.

Give us a simple UPDATE (preferably in green non-panicky letters) button, a SERVER BROWSER (that only shows mod-relevant servers), and perhaps a CONFIG and EXIT dialog and you are set.

Distribute this with the mod; sit back and profit.

-k

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I think that the SixUpdate carries an impressive number of features, but suffers because it tries to do everything. As D3lta notes a single small-application relevant only for a specific mod-- particularly for the larger more elaborate mods -- would be great.

Give us a simple UPDATE (preferably in green non-panicky letters) button, a SERVER BROWSER (that only shows mod-relevant servers), and perhaps a CONFIG and EXIT dialog and you are set.

Distribute this with the mod; sit back and profit.

-k

Individual mod updating doesn't cut it for MP, think about servers running 10+, 20+ mods etc,

and SU provides it + mass updating, and auto selection, and much more, and is getting easier to use each version, and then for every mod / server the same; no special requirements or handling of individual mods.

Instead of getting familiar with countless mod installations, you only need to get familiar with a single program, and method, which is even largely automated.

Not to mention that most mod authors don't host mods themselves, while the updater network is already 12 mirrors strong and growing, most people don't realize the large bandwidth requirements of big and popular mods.

Admins generally also want control over what versions they run, which is all possible, you can fork mod versions or host your own mods and even missions, by hosting a custom repository.

When im done with 2.5 or even 3.0, I think it should fullfill everyones requirements of simplicity and ease of use.

Just need your feedback and support.

Easily finding servers with selected mods has been just added (available in an update soon) :) http://dev-heaven.net/issues/19365

http://s1111.photobucket.com/albums/h468/sickboy6th/Six%20Updater%202/Six%20Updater%2024/

Edited by Sickboy

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SU is not the solution, but part of the problem.

Frequent updates may be great for developers, but it's hell for server admins. The constant restarts kill off player participation on a server. SU, by making frequent updates easier, actually makes the admin's situation worse - because the devs can increase the rate of update and do not coordinate their release schedules. The result is utter chaos.

ACE is not widely hated due to it's content. But the rate of change drives server admin's crazy - they cannot keep up. So they chose not to use it.

Edited by Evil_Echo

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You can always use the latest Stable and ACE is switching to Maintenance mode, so this is moot.

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Oh please, not this again. I'm sure server admins and other people alike can speak for themselves.

As to communcating releases; there's RSS, BIF announce thread, and an issue tracker to follow our every step.

Updates always occur on a set schedule while Hotfixes are only dispatched when they are important.

One way we could decrease problematic impact of such hotfixes would be to sign them with the same keys as the release, but not much more beyond that. I've put it on my todo list.

While server update facilities (server admin responsibility) probably could be improved to further decrease impact. Yes, IMO it is shared responsibility between all parties.

Besides, not everyone runs ACE, and the use case of SU reaches far beyond ACE.

To add to Mr Charles; as pointed out already, mods and versions can be locked and forked with SU too, so it is moot indeed.

While everyone's asking or talking about solutions, they are already existing for a large part or being worked on very hard, but it needs people's support and commitment (Solutions don't come magically falling from the sky).

Obviously within the limitations of our little sandbox, defined by BIS. Beyond the confinds of that sandbox, nobody can do much, except BIS, and we all (incl devs) have to live with that.

Edited by Sickboy

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My point is not ACE, it's mod updates themselves. Too much, too fast, too often poorly tested.

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That makes no sense. Modders not testing their mods sufficiently should be obviated by requiring all users to perform manual installations? :confused:

God save us all if BIS do actually implement addon downloading then...

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Oh please, not this again. I'm sure server admins and other people alike can speak for themselves.

I always speak for myself, in this case having run a dedi server for our clan as well as being some who ran a lot of uptime-critical infrastructure in the real world. So stop your "Oh please" put-downs.

ACE was mentioned as an example of a product with high update rates, nothing more. The issue is not ACE, it's the general situation of frequent mod updates. Too much, too fast, too often poorly tested. After enough annoyance - admins just give up and drop use of a mod that excedes their threshold.

SU encourages such behavior by devs. From a server admin viewpoint, frequent updates are disruptive and any product that interrupts service too often will get the boot. That's my point - end of story.

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"Oh please" put downs come from a long history of that crap, don't act surprised or innocent.

Server admins can decide themselves when to update what, either by hosting the mods on your website, on an addonsync or six updater custom repository, etc.

But it's easier to point the finger at other people, instead of taking responsibility yourself.

Frequent updates do not have to be disruptive - but it's your responsibility as server admin to handle it.

I don't see why devs have to put a handle on frequent updates, while you have the power to decide and handle the mods as you please.

Heck, you even have the possibility to test a release yourself for a month or two, or perhaps take 3 or 6 to be absolutely sure, and only then put it on your server - making sure it fulfills your requirements. Nobody is stopping you.

A lot of people are in modding for fun. Expecting profesional, bug-free, well documented and tested projects is simply unrealistic, a dream.

You should be happy there are people out there actually making stuff for free for you and others to enjoy, nobody owes you anything, and how people work on their mods, how they release it, how frequent they release, etc, is completely up to them.

You have the choice to use or not use it, and if you use it, while you know about update frequency, quality, or anything else, then it's on you and nobody else.

But people want to play with the latest toys - that's their choice, and it simply comes with consequences.

Just stop blaming everyone else for your choices and problems, and deal with them, like everyone else has to take care of theirs.

Frequent update releases has little to do with SU, some teams do frequent releases, others don't, that was the case before SU, and it will be the case after SU.

Edited by Sickboy

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Look around and count the number of devs that have gone dark in the last few months. It's not just Xeno, a bunch of notables have stopped work.

A bunch of people seem to think that posting crap on BIF and Skype channels is harmless fun. They've turned the community forums into a stinking sewer.

A good dev can always find something else to do. So we go to better places to continue our work. :butbut:

SU is not the solution, but part of the problem.

Frequent updates may be great for developers, but it's hell for server admins. The constant restarts kill off player participation on a server. SU, by making frequent updates easier, actually makes the admin's situation worse - because the devs can increase the rate of update and do not coordinate their release schedules. The result is utter chaos.

ACE is not widely hated due to it's content. But the rate of change drives server admin's crazy - they cannot keep up. So they chose not to use it.

It's not okay to criticize/blame Xeno's work unfairly, but it's okay to criticize/blame Sickboy's work unfairly.

Anyways, to most people, it can be seen that the work done by Yoma and Sickboy are steps that, although not the best method which would be an actual ingame means of doing what they do, are what is needed until things start to change in future games by BIS.

Personally, the currently released SIX Updater is incredibly easy to use compared to how it started off. I literally had to load it, select the ACE preset and hit Run Updater. In a few hours (thanks to my crappy internet) I was able to play with my friends for a nice ACE MP session. It's part of the solution (for the short term), definitely not part of the problem.

In terms of ACE updates specifically, I've honestly never updated once to the latest version, gone ingame and found things to be unbelievably broken as a result. Maybe I was lucky, or maybe you're exaggerating. :)

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Ty Zipper, dead on re the possibilities - we can only do so much ourselves (and believe me im working hard on it!!), but we are still limited to the game, and what possibilities it provides for mod management.

The limitations / problems are not one group's problem & responsibility, but everyone's.

Edited by Sickboy

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I agree with the OP. Though, I think mod-map bashing in this thread is useless. ArmA 2 lacks HUGE amounts of UI/Gameplay polish, net code optimization, performance problems and probably the worst of all; lack of strong multiplayer support from BIS.

If BIS focused on making the MP experience better by publishing MP expansions, having an official MP Gamemode(something like PR) ArmA would be much more popular in public. They need to introduce the "pick up and play" feature without comprimising core game.

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Whether admins can or can't keep up I can't say, but many sure seem to choose not to keep up eventually. Often servers have either not up-to-date versions or simply give up on the mods altogether. Especially when players probably complain to them non-stop about problems with the mods (be it on the client's or server admin's shoulders to solve them), they probably just give up with a "why do I need this !@#!?" as the reasoning. And if their server is rarely populated, I can really understand why they aren't willing to put up the effort needed to keep it running.

However using "server downtime" as an excuse to not update/use mods is silly. ACE is the only mod that has big updates relatively often and even those are rather fast most of the time. Other mods are usually much smaller in size and would have even smaller and less frequent updates. Unless you use 100 mods I don't see how server downtime is really a primary issue when it comes to keeping mods up to date. Especially when the biggest one, ACE, offers a "stable" version that doesn't update nearly as often (though I have to say often the fact there is more than 1 available version can cause almost as much trouble it helps).

Rak, if Arma 2 was more popular, maybe BIS would have had the budget/manpower to do all of those and more. But they don't, so we have to deal with it the best we can. But a very large portion of the players are not willing to make a few extra mouse clicks in order to make things happen (ex: Download required tools/mods and try new missions), which just doesn't work in a game like Arma 2 that is so strongly dependent on community-made content.

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I believe that the BIS should not focus on expanding into high populations of players on servers in the ARMA (COD-style), but it should facilitate the maximum that new players are exposed to the world of this game in a way easier, letting them focus more on fun and gameplay than actually in installation procedures of MODs, doing this, everyone wins this BONUS.

Look, MODs is the premium point of ARMA, I'm suggesting to the BIS to improve its current addon architecture, so we can create new islands and objects linked directly to the server (or for mission xD), thus facilitating the life of every world. even think it should be the feature number one for ARMA3.

Another thing we developers of scripts would need is the ability to create unit tests, now is poor in comparison with real-world tools like those in high-level languages ​ (Ex. C#, Java).

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i do agree with cookieeater on his point #3.

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I believe that the BIS should not focus on expanding into high populations of players on servers in the ARMA (COD-style), but it should facilitate the maximum that new players are exposed to the world of this game in a way easier, letting them focus more on fun and gameplay than actually in installation procedures of MODs, doing this, everyone wins this BONUS.

Look, MODs is the premium point of ARMA, I'm suggesting to the BIS to improve its current addon architecture, so we can create new islands and objects linked directly to the server (or for mission xD), thus facilitating the life of every world. even think it should be the feature number one for ARMA3.

Another thing we developers of scripts would need is the ability to create unit tests, now is poor in comparison with real-world tools like those in high-level languages ​ (Ex. C#, Java).

It would be a dream to have Lua scripting incorporated into GMOD.

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It would be a dream to have Lua scripting incorporated into GMOD.

Yeahhh, Lua is great!!!

daydreaming, BIS add a second/alternate level of scripting, using Lua... . :D

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I believe that the BIS should not focus on expanding into high populations of players on servers in the ARMA (COD-style), but it should facilitate the maximum that new players are exposed to the world of this game in a way easier, letting them focus more on fun and gameplay than actually in installation procedures of MODs, doing this, everyone wins this BONUS.

There are other type of high population servers than COD. (Do they even have high player amounts? idk, i haven ever played cod mp)

No need to exclude easier exposure and high player amounts in servers ala PR and 128+ players. Both are good things.

Why have 500km^2 maps if only few players can roam there? To me it makes no sense unless u like driving/jogging 2h only to be shot by a sniper.

I absolutely think that A2 should be optimized to have 200+ player mp possibilities.

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IMO, Arma 2 pub games are awsome.

i have found a way to automatically download the mods necesary to join the server. use six updater to install/update and join a particular server. most servers use the popular mods that six updater automaticall;y syncs and downloads for u like ACE and JSRS mods.

i have been playing pub games a lot recently and it is a joy. people tend to work together and use coms.

the arma 2 community is far more mature then the COD/BF community IMO

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It's a fallacy to think that making it easier for more people to connect to play this game will dumb it down, because the two are not mutually connected.

Here's another opinion coming from playing Novalogic games, (I play BFBC2 when I can't find enough people playing arma or Joint Ops).

The OP's idea on acquiring downloadable content is REALLY GOOD and anything LESS than that is like cutting your nose off to spite your face.

I understand that BIS needs to turn a profit, but the idea that having to be a part of each mod community and a computer programmer and tinkerer to install each individual mods is stupid. That should be a bonus, not a prereq. I don't have a regular schedule and can't always be part of a group that plays at specific times.

And since BIS really does promote 3rd party addons, it would only ADD more players and MAKE a leetle more money if they made acquiring and updating those addons seamless. Remember it can be done without an increase in nonvariable costs by directing players to 3rd party servers for downloads.

Edited by elvinjones

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It's a fallacy to think that making it easier for more people to connect to play this game will dumb it down, because the two are not mutually connected.

Here's another opinion coming from playing Novalogic games, (I play BFBC2 when I can't find enough people playing arma or Joint Ops).

The OP's idea on acquiring downloadable content is REALLY GOOD and anything LESS than that is like cutting your nose off to spite your face.

I understand that BIS needs to turn a profit, but the idea that having to be a part of each mod community and a computer programmer and tinkerer to install each individual mods is stupid. That should be a bonus, not a prereq. I don't have a regular schedule and can't always be part of a group that plays at specific times.

And since BIS really does promote 3rd party addons, it would only ADD more players and MAKE a leetle more money if they made acquiring and updating those addons seamless. Remember it can be done without an increase in nonvariable costs by directing players to 3rd party servers for downloads.

Have you not read anything i have said above your post?

Try SIX updater or addon Sync. it DOES exactly what the OP wants!

It automatically downloads all the mods thats required for most servers within a few button clicks! :j:

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Have you not read anything i have said above your post?

Try SIX updater or addon Sync. it DOES exactly what the OP wants!

It automatically downloads all the mods thats required for most servers within a few button clicks! :j:

For it to be truelly succesful for the public, it should really be supported from within the game, even if it would still depend on the external tools.

However that's only something BI can change, and is hopefully on the wishlist for a future arma game if coming.

Until then, we can't do much more than what SU and AS already do.

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