How to attack this position?

[Joe98 92]

My character and 5 others are on patrol for a total of 6 men. One of the 6 is a medic and one carries a machine gun.

We approach the top of a small ridge and spot some enemy on patrol. I can see 2 but there may be more.

Vertically we are maybe 3 meters above the enemy at distance of about 300 meters.

I have the section form extended line, move to of the ridge and fire on the enemy.

The enemy are good shots and take out 3 of my men quickly.

Could I have done this another way?

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[maturin 12]

The art of Not Getting Shot is one that the only the player can master. Leave your men in readiness just over the crest of the ridge, then sprint away to some piece of cover. Start shooting at the patrol and once you have drawn their fire, duck back into cover and order your men to attack. The enemy will be much more vulnerable to a sudden attack from behind, and multiple threat directions will disrupt their formation and attempts to find shelter.

Alternately, leave your men behind the ridge and take a few shots at the patrol. They will start running around, and it may be possible to displace and engage them piecemeal if some of them start to flank or assault.

[pooroldspike 129]

..We approach the top of a small ridge and spot some enemy on patrol. I can see 2 but there may be more.

Vertically we are maybe 3 meters above the enemy at distance of about 300 meters.

I have the section form extended line, move to of the ridge and fire on the enemy.

The enemy are good shots and take out 3 of my men quickly.

Could I have done this another way?

-

Forming line is good, but order your patrol to drop PRONE before you get to the top of the ridge, then crawl to the top and with any luck you'll blow the enemy away before they can respond because prones are small difficult targets.

However if its grassy and tufty on the ridge you can't drop prone or you won't see anything from down in the grass, so you'll have no choice but to move towards the ridge in a crouch. Try to judge it so that you and your boys stop a little way before the crestline so that the ridge protects their legs and lower bodies, and just their heads, shoulders and weapons poke over the crest.

(Tanks call it 'hulldown')

[MissionCreep 12]

Forming line is good, but order your patrol to drop PRONE before you get to the top of the ridge, then crawl to the top and with any luck you'll blow the enemy away before they can respond because prones are small difficult targets.

However if its grassy and tufty on the ridge you can't drop prone or you won't see anything from down in the grass, so you'll have no choice but to move towards the ridge in a crouch. Try to judge it so that you and your boys stop a little way before the crestline so that the ridge protects their legs and lower bodies, and just their heads, shoulders and weapons poke over the crest.

(Tanks call it 'hulldown')

There are 2 elements to tactics, fire and maneuver. In this case, you may not be able to shoot prone, but you can move prone. And if you are obscured in the prone position, you can maneuver relatively unseen. You could try to maneuver to cover - a ridge, rock, or possibly a covering tree or bush and then fire from a crouch from there. If no cover is available you might have to popup out of concealment and drop down and move. Success or failure depends on your enemy's use of cover, how quickly they can react, how much firepower they can return and how much damage you can inflict popping out of concealment and back down again.

[froggyluv 2136]

Where there more than 2 enemies I'm guessing?

Generally I would do the Line,Prone and usually spread out my men (stealthfully) as to create a wide angle of fire on the enemy to hopefully create some confusion. All my units being given a Hold Fire, I also give each of my units an assigned target and wait for their "Ready to fire" -so that i know that they have good eye on target.

Another tactic that sometimes works in an ambush scenario is after my men have created a wide line (for enlarged arc of fire), I give my two units on the farthest ends of right and left the order to fire first, then my center units after a delay -again, to help create confusion.

[fabrizio_t 58]

I would try the following:

1. No hurry.

2. Order all to hold fire (don't fire a single bullet unless detected or till your're pretty sure about enemy consistence in a 300m. radius).

3. Take machinegunner and a rifleman and make them a "heavy weapons" team. Leave the remaining 3 units on the spot and lead your newly created team to a nearby spot where they have good field of view on enemy units. Move prone. Order them to suitable cover and to watch 2 directions in a 30° angle roughly towards enemy known position. Try to put units on different height so the may have superimposed arcs of fire. Don't put them too close each to other, 20-30m. is fine.

4. Leave your "heavy weapons" team there, their purpose is to detect and watch enemy presence and movements while you move. They're your warranty. Backpedal to the rest of the squad.

5. Order your medic into cover, find a suitable place for him. Don't risk him in combat.

6. Take the remaining 2 members with you, make them a "rifle" team. move carefully on the flank of known enemy units, toward the direction where any other enemies are supposed to be hidden. Follow high ground / crests if possibile. Use binoculars to patiently scan environment. Reveal any targets to your squad.

7. If you have detected more units you have to decide whether attack or retire. If enemies are weak or few AND all in the line of fire of both your teams AND all in the 250-300m. range AND you're on flank of most, then order your 2 buddies in line formation and put them on "hold fire+engage at will". Then order open fire + suppression fire to your "heavy weapons" team. As the first shots fly by, assault rear enemy positions with your own 2 men "rifle" team. Leapfrog fast, you need to get close quick or they'll pin you there.

Good luck.

Edited March 14, 2011 by fabrizioT

[walker 0]

Hi all

What fabrizioT said ^^ is correct

My own particular take on your case is:

What you are using is defilade.

http://community.bistudio.com/wiki/Defilade

But at a guess you are making the mistake of cresting, probably by crawling over the top of the hill and moving on to the forward slope, there by loosing all its defensive features.

Normally you use the crest as you would a sand bag wall, eg. stood up or knelt, firing over it and ducking behind it and moving to pop up somewhere else when suppressed. Better still firing a burst then moving.

But in this case the I would suggest Crest of the hill is not the point of defense, it is your kill zone. Where you will draw the enemy into an L shaped ambush.

http://community.bistudio.com/wiki/Conduct_an_Ambush

All units hold fire.

Split into three teams. MG, Assault and medic as per fabrizioT's description.

MG team to a flank between 200m and 300m away to one side of your Kill-zone looking along the slope below the crest. They will enfilade the enemy when they are held in the killzone by the assault team.

http://community.bistudio.com/wiki/Crossing_the_T_effect

Medic to the rear in hard cover.

Assault team in line beyond grenade range so say 150m to 200m; all Prone looking up hill at kill zone.

Move in to the kill-zone on opposite flank to MG team; just cresting the hill eg Stood up with head and gun only above the crest, rest of body behind hill, DONT CRAWL! over the crest.

Initiate contact with timed grenade(s) for shock, followed by a couple of aimed shots, idealy arriving at same time as the grenades explode, make sure they see you, indicated by shots fired at you. Retire to reverse slope, for this is a reverse slope defense,

http://community.bistudio.com/wiki/Defilade#Reverse_Slope_Defense_.28RSD.29

on the flank of your assault team opposite you MG team in hard cover.

Re initiate contact from hard cover then duck behind it, the enemy wan to kill you!

Activate your assault team as the enemy move over the hill.

Active MG team second.

When enemy is engaged and no longer suppressing you, pop your head out for a look and re asses.

If the enemy is retreating assault team must now counter attack to maintain initiative.

Go up with them, stop them just before crest, and throw grenades over it.

Pop your head over and re asses, nothing worse than doing a Butch and Sundance.

K0UzG-Gc7II

If the enemy is in full retreat form line with all units especially MG, on crest and shoot the retreating soldiers in the back, always the best place to shoot anyone.

Medic up and redistribute ammo.

Kind Regards walker

Edited March 14, 2011 by walker

[pooroldspike 129]

Incidentally, although Line formation is fine for a nice straight ridge, we have to choose the best formation for other terrain and for built up areas etc, here's a formation guide i did mainly for newcomers-

[pooroldspike 129]

[pooroldspike 129]

And like other guys have said, take your time without hurrying and avoid doing a Butch and Sundance..:)

Here are a couple of screenshots from a mission we created over at the Few Good Men club that illustrate the "no hurry" approach-

My squad approach an enemy ville so I order them to drop prone in Line formation and just eyeball for a while. After a couple of minutes this bad guy breaks cover-

So we blow him away.

(And yeah I know lying prone in open ground is not always a good idea but hey, we had night vision goggles and the enemy didn't, it's all a matter of weighing up the risks for given situations)

PS- that Mission is "The Residents Arrive", go have a crack at it if you like.

I also did a full debriefing with screenshots for newcomers to pick up tips-

FEW GOOD MEN- http://www.thefewgoodmen.com/thefgmforum/showthread.php?7400-FGM-3-The-Residents-Arrive-v1.1

[Joe98 92]

On patrol in open ground, traditionally wedge is the best formation.

But I have found the section does not retain formation so I have been using staggerred column.

They follow me more closely and can still produice all-round fire.

Q: Is there an order equivalent to:"You stick with me".

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[fabrizio_t 58]

Hi all

What fabrizioT said ^^ is correct

My own particular take on your case is:

What you are using is defilade.

http://community.bistudio.com/wiki/Defilade

But at a guess you are making the mistake of cresting, probably by crawling over the top of the hill and moving on to the forward slope, there by loosing all its defensive features.

Normally you use the crest as you would a sand bag wall, eg. stood up or knelt, firing over it and ducking behind it and moving to pop up somewhere else when suppressed. Better still firing a burst then moving.

But in this case the I would suggest Crest of the hill is not the point of defense, it is your kill zone. Where you will draw the enemy into an L shaped ambush.

http://community.bistudio.com/wiki/Conduct_an_Ambush

All units hold fire.

Split into three teams. MG, Assault and medic as per fabrizioT's description.

MG team to a flank between 200m and 300m away to one side of your Kill-zone looking along the slope below the crest. They will enfilade the enemy when they are held in the killzone by the assault team.

http://community.bistudio.com/wiki/Crossing_the_T_effect

Medic to the rear in hard cover.

Assault team in line beyond grenade range so say 150m to 200m; all Prone looking up hill at kill zone.

Move in to the kill-zone on opposite flank to MG team; just cresting the hill eg Stood up with head and gun only above the crest, rest of body behind hill, DONT CRAWL! over the crest.

Initiate contact with timed grenade(s) for shock, followed by a couple of aimed shots, idealy arriving at same time as the grenades explode, make sure they see you, indicated by shots fired at you. Retire to reverse slope, for this is a reverse slope defense,

http://community.bistudio.com/wiki/Defilade#Reverse_Slope_Defense_.28RSD.29

on the flank of your assault team opposite you MG team in hard cover.

Re initiate contact from hard cover then duck behind it, the enemy wan to kill you!

Activate your assault team as the enemy move over the hill.

Active MG team second.

When enemy is engaged and no longer suppressing you, pop your head out for a look and re asses.

If the enemy is retreating assault team must now counter attack to maintain initiative.

Go up with them, stop them just before crest, and throw grenades over it.

Pop your head over and re asses, nothing worse than doing a Butch and Sundance.

K0UzG-Gc7II

If the enemy is in full retreat form line with all units especially MG, on crest and shoot the retreating soldiers in the back, always the best place to shoot anyone.

Medic up and redistribute ammo.

Kind Regards walker

All you say is technically correct and agree 99.99%, but there's a couple of minor things on which i tend not agreeing, gameplay wise.

I would prefer having heavy weapons team opening fire as first. That's because ingame accuracy of machingunners fire at the 300m. range is quite low and enfilade would not be as deadly as in reality.By being the first to fire, the machinegunner will simply achieve the task to divert enemy attention from the assault units approaching on flank. He will eventually manage to just pin down some targets.

The assault team has to both move closer and fire at the same time.

Chance is your assault team won't be less than 200-250m. far from enemies (hard to move closer undetected unless tarrain is overly favourable). Opening fire as first and so being a primary target while approaching in clustered in formation from an out-of-effective-range position would be quite risky.

Making heavy weapons lead fire you expose only 40% of your strength to first enemy reaction. These units are prone, in cover and they possess the most firepower, chance is they'll survive if your maneuver timing is good.

At the same time you and the assault team (3/5 of the total combat force = 60%) have granted a better chance against the flank of potentially pinned / suppressed units.

Also: at first, when the patrol is suddenly identified, i would not take the risk of moving the team with the most firepower, it would be better to put heavy weapons in a compromise close position as a warranty against being detected and intercepted and move the assault team instead.

My 2 cents ;)

Edited March 14, 2011 by fabrizioT

[walker 0]

Hi fabrizioT

Valid points accepted.

My reasoning on the flank heavy weapons position to enfilade was to reduce barrel traverse thus essentially reducing the gunnery equation to elevation, making target aquisition faster.

And discovery on the assault team as they are dispersed targets rather than focussed targets. I also perhaps did not make clear that assault team would be prone and idealy in cover until the enemy was surpressed and or in retreat.

I do think both tactics are equaly valid. An in a Coop would be happy with a commander who proposed either plan. In PvP I would want flank seccurity too, the medic can provide that on the MG side.

It would be interesting to analyse which version of the tactic is best both in game as I think the question is very nuanced:

• AI vs. Human controled AI,
  
• COOP human vs. AI.
  
• and AI vs. AI.
  
• PvP
  

The latter would be problomatic :( one would have to obtain a group of players who did not know they were being expermented on. Very unethical.

I think it could be adequately tested in experiment using AI vs. AI.

Kind Regards walker

Edited March 15, 2011 by walker

[Ollie1983 10]

Heavy weapons do not generally fire except as a last resort, particularly in a defensive position. To fire them gives their position away.

A handful of men in the open, you are on a ridge and behind cover, perfect defensive position, it is work for rifles and things like the M203. You would typically wait until all of the enemy force are in the gauntlet before opening up. To open fire early and attack only a piecemeal part of an enemy force invites the possible remainder of their force to swallow you up.

Wedge is favoured and generally MG would be on the end closest to axis of expected attack. Line is great until you are attacked from the flank, and you are easily gunned down, OR conversely, you are unable to return fire as you are in each others firing lines.

There are a lot of books you can buy with this sort of information in. The techniques are many years old and have not really altered in decades.

In an attack against a fixed position, half the force or its firepower would take good positions and open fire whilst the remainder move forward and work their way into grenade range before charging.

In most instances heavy weapons get priority of positions and the most critical lines of fire.

A rough rule of thumb is the farther you can see or the more open the terrain the larger your spacings, in built up areas or jungle etc you would close up because it is very easy to lose contact with each other, esp in the dark.

If you were the enemy, particularly the Takistanis or insurgents, your number one priority would be to be very aggressive and get very close to the allied forces positions, almost hand to hand, thus neutralizing their vastly better fire discipline, arty and air power, as the risk to them becomes far too great.

The Vietcong, and even the Chinese in Korea tended to operate mostly at night to make up for their total lack of air power, but with modern viewing aids I wonder if day time operations are not better for Taliban etc.