Oil Prices set to tumble.

[Dropper 10]

Well, I don't care about oil prices because my car is powered by autogas (LPG).:cool:

And I think there is no need for hydrogen fuel, electricity is our future.

[Baff1 0]

A gas explodes when there is low fuel and high oxygen concentrations, bit of basic chemistry 101 there. So this is the more important temperature to consider.

It seems you learnt your chemistry from Bob Crow as well as your economics.

First I'll address your red herring and spoof chemistry.

The temperature of a spark is enough to ignite hydrogen. Do you need a hotter spark than you need for petrol?

No, you just need a spark. Any spark will do, no need to measure it's exact temperature. All sparks are hot enough.

Now, onto the chemistry 101 part.

Hydrogen needs 1 molecule of oxygen to burn for every 2 molecules of hydrogen.

Natural gas requires 2 molecules of oxygen, meaning it requires twice as much air before it becomes dangerous.

So with a natural gas leak in your house, it takes a certain amount of time before the correct and dangerous mix of gases is created that could form an explosion, but with hydrogen that time is halved.

Further to this the energy released from the combustion of hydrogen, measured in KJ is litterally double the amount of KJ released from the combustion of natural gas.

It is twice as powerful an explosive as natural gas and twice as volatile.

(So while this will clearly mean more precautions will have to be taken in the storage of this fuel, it also means you can get a lot more mileage from a storage tank the same size as one storing natural gas).

I think it's only fair to ask you at this point, if hydrogen engines make so much sense, why is it that you don't own one?

Is it because deep down when it becomes time to get your wallet out, that you don't believe a word you've been saying?

I expect so. If you don't believe your own hype, then I doubt others will either.

Edited March 5, 2011 by Baff1

[Hans Ludwig 0]

And I think there is no need for hydrogen fuel, electricity is our future.

Where does your electricity come from?

[walker 0]

Hi Baff1

Any chance that you can give us potted explanation of your experience of the world? Education work etc.

Your understanding of chemistry seems similar to your understanding of economics, incomplete. Hint: Extrapolating molecular properties to real life chemistry as you did excludes things like density.

FACT

Hydrogen will ignite from a spark at around 4% of volume in air. Methane at between 4.4 - 5% not much of a difference there. Diesel fuel will explode at only 0.6% of volume in air and Gasoline will explode at 1.4% of volume of air.

Of more importance are two things:

1)The Flash point of a fuel that is the temperature at which an explosive vapour or gas can form. Obviously for any gas this is moot but in reality it is moot for Gasoline too; for the fuels we are concerned most have flash points below well below what humans tend to find comfortable.

Hydrogen -253 ºC (–423 ºF)

Methane -188 ºC (–306 ºF)

Gasoline –43 ºC (–45 ºF)

Diesel 62 °C (143 °F)

As you can see Diesel is the only one with a positive flash point temperature.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flash_point

2) The Autoignition Temperature at which it will spontaneously ignite:

Hydrogen: 536 °C (997 °F)

Methane (Natural Gas) 580 °C (1076 °F)

Gasoline (Petrol): 246–280 °C (475–536 °F)

Diesel or Jet A-1: 210 °C (410 °F)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autoignition_temperature

and

http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/fuels-ignition-temperatures-d_171.html

The Strategic Danger of Fosil Fuels

The real problem for Fossil fuels is that they are a finite resource thus since we are Past Peak Oil, the industry is in terminal decline, because supply has topped out and it cannot keep up with demand. This is basic economics. It has become a commodity. This means that it will, as it is doing, price itself out of the market, and eventually run out. This why the their are price bubbles like the one now and why the fossil fuel market is corrupt.

The oil price is swinging about wildly and is just not a safe strategic bet. At the moment people are shorting oil.

http://seekingalpha.com/article/255253-anticipating-a-decline-in-crude-prices-shorting-oil-silver-etfs-should-be-profitable

In other words they are doing what T. Boone Pickens did in the last oil bubble.

The problem for world economies is that the continually rising price, volatility and declines in supply will cause another recession if not a full scale depression.

Fossil Fuels have no long term future in the economics of the world. They are in terminal decline.

Kind Regards walker

Edited March 5, 2011 by walker

[Dropper 10]

Where does your electricity come from?

Nuclear power plants, renewable energy.But primarily from the first one.

I think there is no application of fossil fuels that can't be replaced with electric energy.

Oh, now I see you asked me where does my electricity come from.It's from hydroelectric plant.

[Beagle 672]

I think there is no application of fossil fuels that can't be replaced with electric energy.

Aircraft depend on combustible fuels, because electric systems are to heavy and have a much to short range for full sized aircraft. Only solution here could be Zeppelin sized airships with solar power based Motors...but those are still slow.

[Dropper 10]

Yes, well with the exceptions of aircrafts and maybe ships, there is no other applications of oil that cant be replaced with electricity.

[Hans Ludwig 0]

Don't CVN's use electricity? Doesn't electricity also create more torque?

[Baff1 0]

I've only never used electric engines for garden machinery and model aircraft.

Batteries don't last long in my experience.

I've replaced them all with petrol engines over the years.

[dm 9]

Don't CVN's use electricity? Doesn't electricity also create more torque?

Nope, steam. The reactors generate steam which drives the turbines.

[Baff1 0]

Hi Baff1

Any chance that you can give us potted explanation of your experience of the world? Education work etc.

I'm 40 years old. From 18-30 I worked in music and television and teaching and later on computers.

Prior to 18 I worked in assorted family businesses for assorted family members. Glass recycling, shop keeping, fruit machines.

The highlights.

I built the first ever £4 jackpot machine in this country, aged 13. "Pony Express".

My TV shows have been on 1 in 4 television sets in the world. I have performed live to a crowd of 75 thousand people and pulled my own crowd of 45,000.

I got my post grad degree at 19.

I was the best paid teacher in every school I ever worked. Right from the age of 19.

I live in the largest house in the village.

I retired at 30.

Random sexy women keep trying to come home with me.

I've flown in a private jet.

The low lights.

I never attended university.

I used to live in the smallest house in the village and bathe in the kitchen sink.

I have lived on the street.

I live with my mum. (But not in the basement!!!).

I have no children.

The only time I have ever been significantly financially successful off my own back was when I was a criminal.

At the age of 30 I retired off the investments my dad made for me. The ones he still manages.

I am not the brains in my family. Just the understudy. Baff junior.

The relevant life experiences to this topic.

I drive a petrol engined car and have done for over 20 years.

I have had investments in oil and electricity generation companies for over 20 years.

It seems to me that you are still completely refusing to tell us why it is you have decided not to go with hydrogen engines yourself after advising us all to?

Please explain that decision to us.

Obviously your actual personal experiences on the subject matter are a lot more relavent to this topic than your idle fantasies. I value your experience over your imagination.

Edited March 6, 2011 by Baff1

[hellfire257 3]

That is quite a CV Baff! LOL

[walker 0]

Hi Baff1

As you are fully aware Hydrogen, like batteries and other renewables is a competing product to fossil fuels but the majority of fuel stations are owned by guess who? I am sure you can see where I am going with this one.

The primary barriers to entry for any market entrant whether it be a games company breaking into the simulation market or a renewable fuel trying to break into the automotive market are those erected by the existing market suppliers. Marketing 101 that.

So for instance Big Oil is constantly erecting barriers to entry. Big Oil sits on lots of excess profits from a near monopoly position with which to do this. Buying up patents to prevent development of competing products. Paying millions of dollars to feed in false and bad science into academic research that then has to be refuted and don't forget all those excess profits as a result of its monopoly position mean it can pay for more bad science than its competitors can pay for good science. Lobbying governments and buying politicians to erect barriers to entry in the form of regulation to skew the market. Eg higher safety costs for Hydrogen than petrol. Higher planning costs for wind-farms than Oil rigs and open cast mines. Increasing the regulatory complexity for hydrogen production facilities and investment, thus increasing the legal and administrative costs for hydrogen over that of fossil fuels. Controlling media by having overwhelming public relations department, via inserted ready written articles, Sorry but most journalists are lazy and if you give them a pre written story they will claim it print it and enjoy that liquid lunch the Big Oil PR department provides. Out right buying up of media providers. Etc.

That dirty tricks are done in the name of entrenched monopolists like BIG OIL is not lies or even conspiracy theories, it is just the reality of what people who know their business model is crumbling do. T. Boone Pickens said as much in his senate testimony.

Heck even the concept of supplying crud to those who write in forums like this one, with their slant on how the world works.

If I lived in Iceland I would probably be driving a Hydrogen powered car. In the UK there is maybe one or two Hydrogen fuel filling stations already and the new Honda is going to be providing a home fuel station.

The Hydrogen economy is coming Baff1.

And when Toyota publicly release a Hydrogen Powered Rav4; I am currently living in the country, on an unadopted road and we need 4 wheel Drive where I live, especially in the winter; I will almost certainly be driving one. Mainly because it will be cheaper than a petrol car.

More importantly I will be pushing, constantly pushing, for the source of energy that provides that hydrogen to be Wind power and other renewables. By the way if we get Fusion power working then Hydrogen will be the fuel we use in our engines, no if buts or maybes because Hydrogen is the obvious transportable fuel. Unless of course we develop much better batteries.

Kind Regards walker

Edited March 7, 2011 by walker

[Baff1 0]

I think it's quite possible it's coming Walker old man.

It's when you say it's already here or that oil is dead that I start taking you for a fool.

How much does it cost to produce hydrogen fuel? and what mileage do you get from that?

My dad used to make it in the 40's. He said it requires enormous amounts of electricity.

Bear in mind that if we go wind power... that is something that we won't have.

Skewing markets creates dangerous bubbles. I can't say I am an advocate of that kind of behaviour.

In my opinion if an industry is not organically sustainable it's best left alone.

I prefer stable economics to lefty politics.

LMAO. BIG OIL certainly isn't a conspiracy theory...hahahaha no one would ever dream of accusing you of conspiracy theories. ROFL.

If you invested in hydrogen like you said I should, you could build your own garages.

There is no reason why oil companies or I have to do anything for you. You are a grown adult.

You don't need government suusidies or legislation any more than oil did to replace steam.

You just need a pair of balls.

To believe in what you are saying.

That's all.

No need to whine and complain that people are keeping you down. They aren't.

If you want hydrogen, pay for it.

When you do, people may start to take you more seriously instead of mistaking you for a schoolboy.

Edited March 7, 2011 by Baff1

[froggyluv 1652]

My TV shows have been on 1 in 4 television sets in the world. I have performed live to a crowd of 75 thousand people and pulled my own crowd of 45,000.

Hmmm, what shows? You pulled 45,000 people too see you do what? Pics or it didnt happen. :p

[walker 0]

Hmmm, what shows? You pulled 45,000 people too see you do what? Pics or it didnt happen. :p

Hi froggyluv

The Milton Keynes Bowl holds 65,000 is about the only place that fits among the usual venues. Earls Court is on 30,000. The O2 arena only holds 20,000. The National Indoor Arena at the NEC in Birmingham is 12,700 to 13,840. Wembley Arena holds around 12,500 seats. The Royal Albert Hall is significantly smaller at only 5,250 people. It could be a football stadium Wembley stadium holds an audience of 70,000 or possibly a festival but if so then one of the smaller stages or early in the day on one of the main stages.

Of course I am assuming that it was music and not say comedy, he said TV programs so it is a possibility, heck he could even be a Bored Agin Preacher for some oddball imaginary friend society; he was not specific, and I do not blame him, forums are bad enough without sycophantic numpties stalking you on them. And of course we could be speaking about some one drawing such an audience in say Japan or Germany or even the US.

Since he said drew the audience that would probably mean headline for the venue. Retired at 30. Now in his forties which narrows it down to the 90s so if music in the UK then possibly Brit Pop or a boy band, I remember going to a lot of techno and raves around that time, some of those had large audiences though it was dieing out by the 90s.

I suppose if you were really interested one could start somewhere like this:

http://www.inthe90s.com/index.shtml

Anyway back to the key issue of the decline of oil industry. At some point all things get over the hill. I suppose what we should really be doing is looking at other industries that have reached their peak and then fell into decline.

How fast did steam decline in the rail industry once diesel took over?

How fast did the coal industry decline in the UK?

How fast did steel decline?

Generally speaking industrial decline has accelerated over the past two decades; with new industries supplanting the older ones at a faster and faster rate. I seem to remember some recent economic studies churn rates about this; where they are talking about us moving to sub 5 year cycles. In other words an industry sprouts up supplants its predecessor and it self declines in just 5 years.

What then would be the life expectancy of the oil industry in decline?

Kind Regards walker

Edited March 7, 2011 by walker

[froggyluv 1652]

Well lets see,

Went from rags to riches, Daddy runs the books, still lives with Mum, performed for masses of adoring fans and random women lust for him....

....Ive got it! He 's Justin Bieber. :o

The age is just a red herring.