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nes4day

Call for a new forum rule

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If you guys are really that scared that someone could open your work and have a look at it, well then don't release it. Sounds hard but it is like that.

The modding community was only possible because of the ability to look at other peoples work and learn from them, that's a fact.

Don't tell me that you addon guys never opened a pbo file and took a look at the models, configs or scripts. And now as you have the knowledge you want to limit it, for a reason only you know.

Maybe you should sit down and think about that for a minute, none of you gonna loose anything if Joe Doe unpacks your pbo and looks at a script or config line. A little bit more tolerance wouldn't hurt.

words full of wisdom, thing difficult to find in these forums

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Below text is my personal opionion!

And to say it again: This whole discussion about IP and the self-proclaimed 'addon police' one day will kill the whole modding.

That's statement is uncommonly flawed coming from you, W0lle. No one is proclaiming themselves anything. Everyone has the same right of discussion as everyone else. It is people who are critical of the conscious people who spot addon rights violations that gave that appellation for obvious political reasons. No one likes to be 'policed'... it's actually quite ironic, that the people who are supporting peoples' rights are actually the ones who are being called oppressors. Very tricky. And it's now applied to anyone who makes a comment, so it's a false generalization as well. No actually policing is being done... so maybe we should start a counter buzz-word. Maybe anyone who makes comments that show a generally relaxed opinion of copyrights should be called 'addon rapists' or something equally as ridiculous. Are you a rapist, W0lle? Am I police?

Simply because at some point people are too scared of releasing stuff when they have to deal with all that legal crap.

I really wonder why we now must have this endless discussions again and again and again. No matter how hard I look, back in the first five years there was no such discussions at all - and there were countless of similiar addons (may I remember the dozens of M4 mods?) and no one ever was complaining about addons being stolen. So why now? And why always the same group of people?

Probably because everyone was 10 years younger, and you can't create new addons anymore with 20 minutes and MSPaint.

If you guys are really that scared that someone could open your work and have a look at it, well then don't release it. Sounds hard but it is like that.

The modding community was only possible because of the ability to look at other peoples work and learn from them, that's a fact.

Don't tell me that you addon guys never opened a pbo file and took a look at the models, configs or scripts. And now as you have the knowledge you want to limit it, for a reason only you know.

Maybe you should sit down and think about that for a minute, none of you gonna loose anything if Joe Doe unpacks your pbo and looks at a script or config line. A little bit more tolerance wouldn't hurt.

It's not really an issue of never opening a config file, it's an issue of not really doing so without permission, which I think is the crux of the issue... but then again, what are the issues on the forums regarding IP stuff? Is it really config lines and that sort of thing? I think not. For many reasons, the issues are massive rip offs of accumulated works of weeks and months of time, such as the popular RPG type missions. There are things being imported from other games, unauthorized conversion, inaccurate claims of credit, theft and sale, and all the rest. Let's not distill this whole spectrum of issues down to peeking at scripts or any other single act.

Edited by Max Power

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the issue of opening a config is not nearly as dangerous as opening a model.

The real danger comes when then content is ripped, opened, stolen or whatever you want to call it, and re-used.

Especially when it comest opening a released addon, making a personal edit, and then re-releasing into the public said addon without expressed permission of the original author.

I complained about this in the licensing thread and i feel the only way for it to be stopped is for BI to make a clear cut statement on this. Yes its ok to do this or no its not.

In the end this will kill off addon making. If i make something and someone takes it, re-releases it with thier own config, then why should I make it in the first place.

I have proven over and over that its not so hard to get in touch with people and get permissions to use thier stuff. in fact i have found most addon makers are happy to share their stuff as long as propper permissions are requested and propper credits are given. Its not that hard to be respectful. maybee thats the lost art of today or something.

and if you dont get a response then tough bannanas... make your own form scratch or move on to another project.

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That's statement is uncommonly flawed coming from you, W0lle. No one is proclaiming themselves anything. Everyone has the same right of discussion as everyone else. It is people who are critical of the conscious people who spot addon rights violations that gave that appellation for obvious political reasons. No one likes to be 'policed'... it's actually quite ironic, that the people who are supporting peoples' rights are actually the ones who are being called oppressors. Very tricky. And it's now applied to anyone who makes a comment, so it's a false generalization as well. No actually policing is being done... so maybe we should start a counter buzz-word. Maybe anyone who makes comments that show a generally relaxed opinion of copyrights should be called 'addon rapists' or something equally as ridiculous. Are you a rapist, W0lle? Am I police?

I never said that there shouldn't be any discussions. What I am saying, and not only me, is that in the past people were accused of stealing content while they didn't. And we repeatedly said in the past that if there might be a problem with IP theft, the threads should be reported instead starting the same old discussion every time. Like it happened just yesterday in the F-14/F-15 thread.

Probably because everyone was 10 years younger, and you can't create new addons anymore with 20 minutes and MSPaint.

And just because of that it should not be restricted.

It's not really an issue of never opening a config file, it's an issue of not really doing so without permission, which I think is the crux of the issue... but then again, what are the issues on the forums regarding IP stuff? Is it really config lines and that sort of thing? I think not. For many reasons, the issues are massive rip offs of accumulated works of weeks and months of time, such as the popular RPG type missions. There are things being imported from other games, unauthorized conversion, inaccurate claims of credit, theft and sale, and all the rest. Let's not distill this whole spectrum of issues down to peeking at scripts or any other single act.

So you really expect now that everyone here should seek permission to unpack a pbo file and have a look at the config?

You addon makers are then the first who complain because of the massive amount of PMs you receive. Sorry but that's bs.

Rip offs happened before and will happen in the future. Nothing gonna stop that, and surely not a ban from the BI forums.

Those who rip content and sell it on other sites don't even care if they are banned here, simply because they create a new account and are back in the game.

The only protection there is, is to not release content. And like said before, if one is really that scared of thieves, or his stuff just being looked at he should keep the things for himself.

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In the end this will kill off addon making. If i make something and someone takes it, re-releases it with thier own config, then why should I make it in the first place.

Didn't a moderator or two just say that people doing that will be permanently banned from the community?

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I never said that there shouldn't be any discussions. What I am saying, and not only me, is that in the past people were accused of stealing content while they didn't. And we repeatedly said in the past that if there might be a problem with IP theft, the threads should be reported instead starting the same old discussion every time. Like it happened just yesterday in the F-14/F-15 thread.

I didn't say you were against discussing it. What I was saying is that people get called these names for expressing themselves in an open forum. The issue was the appellation. It's not really descriptive and serves only as a means to disempower people.

Regarding that F-14/F-15 thread, I read it after the fact and I agree it got really messy really fast! :crazy: Bad behaviour is bad behaviour, regardless of who is doing it.

And just because of that it should not be restricted

It was always restricted, people just weren't aware of the restrictions. Now that it takes so much effort to do stuff, people are becoming more aware.

So you really expect now that everyone here should seek permission to unpack a pbo file and have a look at the config?

You addon makers are then the first who complain because of the massive amount of PMs you receive. Sorry but that's bs.

Well, I've never complained about that. I don't receive massive amounts of pms. I wonder who it is you're talking about. Besides, I'm not sure if the same people who are asking people to pm them for permission are the same people... and I'm not sure those kinds of pms are the problem.

Rip offs happened before and will happen in the future. Nothing gonna stop that, and surely not a ban from the BI forums.

Those who rip content and sell it on other sites don't even care if they are banned here, simply because they create a new account and are back in the game.

Why ban anyone then? Why have moderators if you can't stop people from behaving badly? Surely, you're here for a reason?

The only protection there is, is to not release content. And like said before, if one is really that scared of thieves, or his stuff just being looked at he should keep the things for himself.

Nothing will stop it but we can surely increase the awareness of the general community and we can reduce some problems a lot and some problems a little bit, and I think the reduction is a good thing.

I just want to say thanks for taking the time to debate with me, W0lle. I appreciate it.

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You addon makers are then the first who complain because of the massive amount of PMs you receive. Sorry but that's bs.

?? If anyone is ever going to complain about massive amount of PMs it would be because of hatemail. I myself dont have massive amounts of messages but I do have alot of kind and civil requests for permission and my outbox contains alot of messages that I sent out myself asking for permissions to look at other people's things.

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In my opinion the only rule change required here would be a type of a "MOD / Addon release forum first post template" and same for WIP forums. Provide a set of rules about what information must be provided in the first posts of the projects you are posting about. If those rules are not met you obviously are missing some important part needed to release the thing you are about to release and should acquire that. And make it a clear rule like: "If you are not the original creator of the addon, you must state (and if required provide proof to moderators) your permission to re-release it to A2 etc". I will admit I cant be bothered to read this whole thread and if anyone has already suggested anything like this. But providing a rule and maybe even a "release tutorial for newbies" would clear up a lot of the fuss thats been going on in the recent months.

I strongly support the model and addon makers rights to their addons but I also want to see new people introduced into the community and specially into the editing of the game. But this must not come with the price of disregarding the rights of people who are not with the community anymore. Also a "Addon graveyard" thread or maybe even a site that could host source files if available would be nice for the people who dont care what happens to their addons anymore.

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I like that idea, Sekra. Very well thought out.

There is an addon graveyard thread already, for authors to donate their dead projects. There was some interesting stuff in there last I checked.

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If you can't find it here, then most probably it's the personal opinion of some of us no?

Thank you for being honest.

This is just my own opinion too: Frankly, considering it is just an opinion I really don't think you or any of the moderators should have the right to decide what happens to anyone's work other than your own.

Its an opinion that a lot of people seem to share. I can only speak for myself in this, but if you are creating these unsanctioned rules based solely on your own opinions without the consultation of the actual creators it concerns me as much as any potential theft. What will come next? I think its a cause for concern. Especially in light of the threat of being banned for expressing my concerns about theft.

And to make this clear: None of us moderators has his 'own rules'. I don't know how you came to that conclusion at all.

Where did I ever say that?

Below text is my personal opionion!

And to say it again: This whole discussion about IP and the self-proclaimed 'addon police' one day will kill the whole modding. Simply because at some point people are too scared of releasing stuff when they have to deal with all that legal crap.

But you are also simplifying the scenario rather a lot. Personally for me its about making sure our addons are protected and respected by the community at large. Mostly they are, but as usual its that small minority that seem selfishly determined to do what ever they want. I think its them that will drive the addon makers out before the "Police" shuts it down.

Those that you seem to brand "addon police" seem to splits down to 2 types of people in my view. Those that are actually defending their own or their friend's stuff and have legitimate cause for concern. And those that just want to get in on the act and be something in the community. Or maybe just want to stir some shit.

Again, personally I don't like the self appointed moderators we have around here. But I don't think anyone should be criticised or banned for supporting addon makers. Having said that I'm not in favour of some of the witch hunt like debates we've had recently either. The F-15/FG14 thread was just nasty. But it boils down to lack of understanding on both sides.

I really wonder why we now must have this endless discussions again and again and again. No matter how hard I look, back in the first five years there was no such discussions at all - and there were countless of similiar addons (may I remember the dozens of M4 mods?) and no one ever was complaining about addons being stolen. So why now? And why always the same group of people?

And "it" repeats because some people are under the misinformed impression that they are allowed to do what they like with free addons. Maybe if that misunderstanding was actually finally and properly cleared up it wouldn't be such and issue.

I thought it was clear from Placebo's Official statement about addon ownership. and from the Licensing threads and Permissions rules. We have the right to control and license the use of our addons.

Five years ago, the community was different. It was friendlier, more cooperation, more discussion, more sharing. These days look at the number of abusive posts that are made. The flame baiting and "your addon is shit" comments. Look at the little pockets of knowledge and - I hate myself for using the word - elitist cliques.

And five years ago there wasn't such a large market for 3rd party models.

Hey I wish the community was like it was 5-8 years ago. We sure as hell wouldn't be having this discussion. But the way to get back to that sort of community is to support the addon makers. Help them communicate with each other and make sure they know they know their stuff can be released and it will be respected.

If you guys are really that scared that someone could open your work and have a look at it, well then don't release it. Sounds hard but it is like that.

That's a massive over simplification and honestly misrepresents the issue. But some people don't seem to realise that. Nor do they seems to read the posts properly. As a result a game of Chinese whispers occurs. And we get the situation we have now.

I wish people would take the "rage glasses" off and actually read that lock thread properly. 90% of the things people are accusing us of just isn't true and was never said. Some people are repeating such biased and baseless crap as though its gospel these days.

Zipper's "flaming opinion piece" in the RKSL thread is a good example. None of his key "facts" that he based his argument were either accurate or true. The displays of righteous indignation may well be honest but the facts you are basing them off are just plain wrong.

The modding community was only possible because of the ability to look at other peoples work and learn from them, that's a fact.

It was possible mainly because people actually spoke to each other and asked questions. Yes people did look in configs, but when it came to dipping into each other's addons they generally did ask first. It was a lot friendlier.

Now we have a lot more blatant ripping, so perhaps the solution is to close that option down and actually provide better documentation for addon makers and make people actually talk to each other again. Get - ok maybe force - people into cooperating again.

If we don't do something to stop the ripping then the community will die. But shouting down the addon makers when you don't agree with them and trying to brush it under the carpet isn't going to save it either.

Don't tell me that you addon guys never opened a pbo file and took a look at the models, configs or scripts. And now as you have the knowledge you want to limit it, for a reason only you know.

I disagree. If that were true, why is it most of the people asking for the option to lock PBO's in that thread also helping create new resources and tutorials for the community to learn from without the need to rip other addons apart.

Maybe you should sit down and think about that for a minute, none of you gonna loose anything if Joe Doe unpacks your pbo and looks at a script or config line. A little bit more tolerance wouldn't hurt.

Nearly everyone asking for the option to lock thread is a well established member of the community. They aren't agitators, they are invested in the future of the community. You are making us out to be some sort of selfish idiots.

Maybe you should take some time to clam down and read the threads without bias. Take an objective look at what was actually said and apply some tolerance yourself.

Edited by RKSL-Rock

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That's statement is uncommonly flawed coming from you, W0lle. No one is proclaiming themselves anything. Everyone has the same right of discussion as everyone else. It is people who are critical of the conscious people who spot addon rights violations that gave that appellation for obvious political reasons. No one likes to be 'policed'... it's actually quite ironic, that the people who are supporting peoples' rights are actually the ones who are being called oppressors. Very tricky. And it's now applied to anyone who makes a comment, so it's a false generalization as well. No actually policing is being done... so maybe we should start a counter buzz-word. Maybe anyone who makes comments that show a generally relaxed opinion of copyrights should be called 'addon rapists' or something equally as ridiculous. Are you a rapist, W0lle? Am I police?

Hit the nail on the head.

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Didn't a moderator or two just say that people doing that will be permanently banned from the community?

yes but unfortunately every time someone reports such actions, the reporter gets flammed as a "community killer", or called the "addon police".

In the end if you read between the lines there seems to be more support for open hacking than following the rules. This deeply saddens me.

Its not that we don't want to release stuff its just scary what happens to the stuff we do release sometimes.

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yes but unfortunately every time someone reports such actions, the reporter gets flammed as a "community killer", or called the "addon police".

That I highly doubt because as far as I know none of Mods reveal the identity of someone who sent a report. And unless the forum is hacked, access to the moderators forum is restricted to those who need access. ;)

Of course if you tell about your report, that's your fault then.

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yes but unfortunately every time someone reports such actions, the reporter gets flammed as a "community killer", or called the "addon police".
Of course if you tell about your report, that's your fault then.
While I agree that sometimes the discussion about IP and stolen (or alegedly stolen) content gets out of hand - as the one just yesterday which caused 2 people to leave - I don't think such a discussion should be moved to PMs where they are hidden from the public.

If someone really has stolen content and trying to 'sell' it as his own work, the people should be named in the public so everyone is aware of them.

thats the part were people get shanked for speaking out. If anyone even begins to raise the issue, automatic label. And as I said before, I dont always agree, I have seen alot of "hunches" and baseless accusations but sometimes people really have been caught in the act this way.

But what I really find strange is that we talk about alot of the "new modding talent" being driven away this way. This scenario seems pretty weird to me:

Defendant(usually a new face on the forum or a repeat offender): "Look at my new uber addon..."

Addon policeman (usually a respected addonmaker, who looks at new content day in day out, seen alot of models, followed development of other addons, cares about IP issues): "Hey hold on a second, I think I've seen this in another pack...have you asked permission?" (this question of course gets asked ONLY when the Defendant never mentions in his original thread whether permission gets asked or not)

User (usually also a new member but often long standing members of the community are also observed, however most have made very little actual contribution to said community): "OMG! Addon police is here, better run! Man you AP's destroy the community@!!"

Defendant: "F&^*k you guys for not appreciating my addon! I am leaving the community!:

now aside from the obvious faulty logic of this conversation which is seen in almost every new release, why is the said defendant feel so compelled to leave the community at the very instant that someone challenges his ownership? it just doesnt make any sense. If someone would challenge my work, I would gladly present my case and move on the next day.

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thats the part were people get shanked for speaking out. If anyone even begins to raise the issue, automatic label. And as I said before, I dont always agree, I have seen alot of "hunches" and baseless accusations but sometimes people really have been caught in the act this way.

But what I really find strange is that we talk about alot of the "new modding talent" being driven away this way. This scenario seems pretty weird to me:

Defendant(usually a new face on the forum or a repeat offender): "Look at my new uber addon..."

Addon policeman (usually a respected addonmaker, who looks at new content day in day out, seen alot of models, followed development of other addons, cares about IP issues): "Hey hold on a second, I think I've seen this in another pack...have you asked permission?" (this question of course gets asked ONLY when the Defendant never mentions in his original thread whether permission gets asked or not)

User (usually also a new member but often long standing members of the community are also observed, however most have made very little actual contribution to said community): "OMG! Addon police is here, better run! Man you AP's destroy the community@!!"

Defendant: "F&^*k you guys for not appreciating my addon! I am leaving the community!:

now aside from the obvious faulty logic of this conversation which is seen in almost every new release, why is the said defendant feel so compelled to leave the community at the very instant that someone challenges his ownership? it just doesnt make any sense. If someone would challenge my work, I would gladly present my case and move on the next day.

+1

thanks Soul_Assasain that is a much better description of what i was trying to say.

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now aside from the obvious faulty logic of this conversation which is seen in almost every new release, why is the said defendant feel so compelled to leave the community at the very instant that someone challenges his ownership? it just doesnt make any sense. If someone would challenge my work, I would gladly present my case and move on the next day.

While I can see a limit on someone's willingness to argue, this is a point I had never thought of!

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Zipper's "flaming opinion piece" in the RKSL thread is a good example. None of his key "facts" that he based his argument were either accurate or true. The displays of righteous indignation may well be honest but the facts you are basing them off are just plain wrong.

Of course, because I take moderator action based solely on false facts knowingly tarnishing my reputation and credibility for the entirety of my time as a moderator. :rolleyes:

If none of what I said was true, I wouldn't have said it, and your thread would be reopened. Instead, it remains locked. Anyway, this thread isn't about your thread, so don't make it so. If you feel the need to discuss how the forum is moderated, I believe there's a rule that states it's not to be done publicly.

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If you feel the need to discuss how the forum is moderated, I believe there's a rule that states it's not to be done publicly.

Pretty sure he was just talking about the comments that were airing your personal opinions in his threads, and not the way you were moderating...because you weren't. Unless you're saying that EVERY comment you make is moderation?

But then again, you do seem to have a habit of seeing things that weren't said, based on the RKSL thread.

Abs

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I certainly was moderating. Perhaps you should go back and see what I said could and could not be done anymore.

I'm not turning this into another one of those. Feel free to go about it if you really want to, it'll only lead to thread derailing infractions being handed out.

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I certainly was moderating. Perhaps you should go back and see what I said could and could not be done anymore.

I must have missed something...because I still don't see it. :confused:

Abs

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I must have missed something...because I still don't see it. :confused:

Abs

I think it's pretty clear what I'm saying to many people, I already have proof of that, other than those who feel inclined to make sure they don't understand it.

I'm sure you saw that, though. If not there's the handy little arrow next to my name on the quote that will take you right to it.

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Didn't see it then, still don't see it now...but no point in us polluting this thread. I'll be sending you a PM to continue this.

Abs

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yes but unfortunately every time someone reports such actions, the reporter gets flammed as a "community killer", or called the "addon police".

http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?t=114572&page=3 i told it on third page , look at my post

yes

in my country i became "the worst" cause i refused to retag my file

instead of "thanx" for addons i get smash in face

in my case topic about my addons was deleted in revenge too and on other Polish forum i was banned (now me, Yac, Topas and other OFP addonmakers like Offtime are not present on scene in own country and those who left .... ) for not allowing to retag my file

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Really appreciate your post and hangin in there Wolle.

This whole discussion about IP and the self-proclaimed 'addon police' one day will kill the whole modding. Simply because at some point people are too scared of releasing stuff when they have to deal with all that legal crap.

Agree.

Sekra's suggestion was pretty good.

I really wonder why we now must have this endless discussions again and again and again. No matter how hard I look, back in the first five years there was no such discussions at all - and there were countless of similiar addons (may I remember the dozens of M4 mods?) and no one ever was complaining about addons being stolen. So why now? And why always the same group of people?

And I going to paint a target on myself and say;

There are some well known addon makers here who now have several other (less than) hidden agenda's (whether they realise it or not !! ), other than simply "releasing nice stuff for the community".

And all I can say is, if you want to keep up this propagation of paranoia and scaremongering, your push for increased protectionism and your lack of support for new addon makers (not all suffer each and every one of these problems), you can take your sweet things and fuck off.

We dont need your pretentious crap bringing down the community. Its worked well enough for 10 years without you taking that line now.

If you guys are really that scared that someone could open your work and have a look at it, well then don't release it. Sounds hard but it is like that.

Yep, stop posting WIP and go find another game and community.

The modding community was only possible because of the ability to look at other peoples work and learn from them, that's a fact.

Don't tell me that you addon guys never opened a pbo file and took a look at the models, configs or scripts. And now as you have the knowledge you want to limit it, for a reason only you know.

Totally agree. They are lying if they say otherwise. Hypocrites

Maybe you should sit down and think about that for a minute, none of you gonna loose anything if Joe Doe unpacks your pbo and looks at a script or config line. A little bit more tolerance wouldn't hurt.

Agree.

And sayin "but unpacking models is different" is BS. Its the same. If the guy just opening to learn, thats it, opened, learned, deleted some time later.

Theres not some friggin virus in the p3d that makes newies suddenly start blubbering "I MUST DISTRIBUTE, I MUST DISTRIBUTE" FFS!

This community doesn't push this shit underground. Everyone benefits from clear rules and open discussion (including some yelling).

The community rules are simple, and easy to follow. They have been that way for years.

@Celery

Thanks for also pointing out, this game isn't all about shiny new addons.

The missions are a far more significant part of what makes this community.

Seems to be less problems like above over there ;)

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The modding community was only possible because of the ability to look at other peoples work and learn from them

I agree. I did it, I do it.

this is the better way to learn the modding for the BIS games.

@the whiners

if you want recognition for your models, you should leave a modding community for a website like Turbosquid, or CGsociety.

A pretentious and selfish attitude is not a good thing, for a modding community, where friendship and support are what is most precious.

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