Bomb kills 36 on russian holiday

[USSoldier11B 0]

Wobble, by support I mainly meant the political type. Gaining solidarity from Russia to step up the war on terror would be tremendous.

[Tovarish 0]

I'm not sure how old the information you're basing that on is, but I believe things have improved somewhat since Putin came into power. Of course things are still far from peachy, but he has cut down the size of the military dramatically, and got rid of the draft, so now its a smaller, more professional force than it was. As for low morale and death-trap submarines, the same could be said about some NATO countries, for example Canada.

[Wobble 1]

their current budget is around 4 billion (US) per year.. less than 3% of the total domestic product..

The shriveling military budget, coupled with the inadequate training of conscripts, a flagging morale, and a traditional bias towards land-based ballistic missiles, has left the country's nuclear submarine fleet in a state of perilous disrepair, analysts contend.

At the same time, the rest of Russia's military has failed to reverse a steady, decade-long decline -- marked by soaring suicide rates in the army, rampant draft evasion and an alarming drop in the number of junior officers with battle expertise.

Anatoly Kornukov said in an interview with the military's Krasnaya Zvezda newspaper that Russia had failed for a decade to modernise its air strike force, and almost half the country's military airfields did not even have fuel for their planes.

"The main headache is that the aircraft are ageing before our very eyes. For the past 10 years not a single new aircraft has been added to our frontline air force, and less than five percent of our aircraft are of the most modern type," he said.

"Battle-ready regiments exist, but are they up to all demands placed upon them? They hope for the best but the system of control is worn out in terms of condition and morale," Kornukov said, a day before Russia celebrates Air Force Day.

A decade of economic reform has left the Russian army with a smaller budget, outdated equipment, poor training and plummeting wages.

Earlier this month, President Putin proposed to bring wages in the military to the same level as civilians. but said extra budgeting for such an action will not occur, thus making the idea impossable

[USSoldier11B 0]

Solidarity! Solidarity! Solidarity!

Why is this turning into a debate over the current state of Russia's military forces? Just having thier political support and human intelligence assets would give us an edge. (Not like we already didn't have one.)

[Tex -USMC- 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (USSoldier11B @ May 10 2002,07:08)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Solidarity! Solidarity! Solidarity!

Why is this turning into a debate over the current state of Russia's military forces? Just having thier political support and human intelligence assets would give us an edge. (Not like we already didn't have one.)<span id='postcolor'>

Never hurts to have someone else on your side. Especially one like Russia

[Wobble 1]

good point.. I know it will never remotley be a "russia to the rescue!" kinda thing.

I guess "we support you" means something.. political support.. no actually help but a smile and a thumbs up..

I guess its useful when someone questions your motives and whatnot.. like the idiots that keep claiming Iraq/US thing is all about oil.. that one still cracks me up.

[Tex -USMC- 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Wobble @ May 10 2002,07:12)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">like the idiots that keep claiming Iraq/US thing is all about oil.. that one still cracks me up.<span id='postcolor'>

Well, really it was. Its just that Saddam is just really easy to hate, y'know? You think we really cared whether he was a dictator? We were just scared that Iraq would get a major monopoly on oil reserves in the region. The fact that Saddam just loves to mouth just gave us an excuse. We should have crushed him when we had the chance, if for no other reason that we wouldnt have to put up with his antics anymore.

[IceFire 0]

By the way, can someone go to "troubleshooting" and reply to my thread?

It almost went off the page and noone responded.

[pathfinder 0]

If you want the 411 on sadam I think it will be on an upcoming FRONTLINE , it's a show on PBS.

As far as camp Xray ,I think we should send them all back to the NORTHERN FRONT troops. Towards the end of the fighting in Afghanistan ,I laughed my ass off as I watched alqaidia{spelling} members and out of town arabs being led out of shipping containers.

Their wounds were so bad with gangrene ,they should have had hands and legs cut off but didn't. Maybe our prisoners would be more gracious if we said ,well guess what guys we're taking you back!

[Wobble 1]

Well, really it was. Its just that Saddam is just really easy to hate, y'know? You think we really cared whether he was a dictator? We were just scared that Iraq would get a major monopoly on oil reserves in the region. The fact that Saddam just loves to mouth just gave us an excuse. We should have crushed him when we had the chance, if for no other reason that we wouldnt have to put up with his antics anymore

this is wrong because..

A: OPEC has the power, not saddam.. a while back saddam threatened to stop selling oil to the US.. and every single other OPEC nation said they would be more than happy to fill the void with their oil.. thus all he would accomplish is eliminating a major source of his income..

B: if he tried to influence any other OPEC nations.. EVERYONE would attack him.. well every country that buys oil from OPEC (most western countries)

its not about oil.. NOT AT ALL..

its about:

A: his buildup of chemical weapons

B: his striving to develop nuclear weapons

and the thing about A and B is everyone knows he would be MORE THAN HAPPY to sell any and everyone the fruits of his labors (chemical and nuclear weapons) to use on whomever they want.. even his own citizens (he did that himself afterall)

so what you think its about?

A: him makeing a vane attempt at cutting off the US from oil.. which could never conciveably work?.

B: his ongoing attempt at becoming an chemical and nuclear weapons Wal-Mart for terrorists.. a one stop shopping center for all your terror needs

OPEC could plug any hole IRAQ could cause by trying to deprive the US of oil.. and they are more than willing to do so (more money for them.. a bigger piece of the pie)

[Tex -USMC- 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Wobble @ May 10 2002,08:59)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><span id='postcolor'>

ahh yes, but what do you think happens to OPEC when suddenly Kuwait, Saudi Arabia and every other country on the Arab peninsula suddenly belong to Iraq?

How can you say it was about his chem weapons and his quest for nukes? if that was the main goal we wouldve marched right into Baghdad. But guess what we did... we liberated Kuwait, and we crushed Saddam's Armored Divisions, so that he couldnt commit any more offensive actions (against OPEC states). then, we... stopped. Sure, the coalition wanted to stop, but we couldve gone on, and sealed the deal. If it was about nukes, we wouldve, but no, it was about oil. Inspections of weapons of mass destruction were only used as a way to embargo Iraqui oil, because we knew he would refuse to cooperate with weapons inspectors, thereby allowing the UN to impose sanctions. Sure, he has chem weapons and possibly even a nuke, but if we had really fought the Persian Gulf War to get rid of those weapons, dont you think there would be a little bit more than 2 No Fly Zones and an aircraft carrier on station 365? No dude, thats bullshit. Until (very) recently, the US has looked at Saddam as an easy scapegoat, an anti American who would play right into their hands. He could act up, throw fits, and fire rifles while spitting hatred of the US, but insted of taking care of him we just keep him corked up, like a genie in a bottle; so that whenever a president needs a boost in an election year he can lob a few missiles at him. Im not saying that Hussein isnt evil, but we need to start treating him like what he is: a common thug who runs a country, not a maniacal super genius.

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Wobble @ May 10 2002,07:12)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">despite the numerous visits by international groups declaring that everything going on there is spec with the geneva convention.. some people keep crying because they dont have hypoalergenec buckwheat pillows or some stupid shit like that..

really strange and retarded shit..<span id='postcolor'>

And, ladies and gentlemen now it is time to play the game.

"Time to correct Wobbles erroneous statements!

(plays the game show theme music)

Camp X-ray has been criticized by the red cross, amnesty international, medecins sans frontieres and a shitload of other organizations. You have picked up some random goat-herds in Afganistan and locked them up in cages in Cuba. You have kidnapped Afgan citizens and locked them up without providing a shread of evidence. If somebody did that to US citizens you would be screaming 'terrorism' and start throwing bombs around you.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I guess its useful when someone questions your motives and whatnot.. like the idiots that keep claiming Iraq/US thing is all about oil.. that one still cracks me up.<span id='postcolor'>

You wouldn't by any chance be living in a trailer and that Jerry Springer is your favourite show? Anybody with a little intelligence or education can se that the world's (not just US) interests in Kuwait is it's oil. You had ten times worse things happening in the world then the occupation of Kuwait and everybody suddenly started to care about the poor Kuwaitis.. yeah right. Even most Americans will admit that the Kuwait thingie was all about oil.

Go and read a book instead of watching the discovery channel and you might actually learn to think for yourself instead of repeating what you hear on TV.

[Wobble 1]

amnesty international

LOL, EVERY COUNTRY, ORGINIZATION, PERSON, GOAT AND OBJECT HAS BEEN CRITICIZED BY THEM, The accuse britian of being a racist country rife with police brutality (which its not) and lots of other crap.. there is one country on their "list" (cant remember name) that is on it because it has had one unsolved murder..

You have picked up some random goat-herds in Afganistan and locked them up in cages in Cuba

goat hearders huh?

must of the folks at camp x-ray were in the big prison riot.. captured soldiers and officers and who knows what else..

and if they were only goat hearders, why would they repdidily lie and give different names every time they are asked.. if thats all they are they would come clean..

"goat hearders" typical simp, moronic bullshit.

You wouldn't by any chance be living in a trailer and that Jerry Springer is your favourite show? Anybody with a little intelligence or education can se that the world's (not just US) interests in Kuwait is it's oil

first off, FUCK YOU ASSHOLE! ive got your jerry springer ya fucking prick,

second.. fuck kuate, im not talking about kuate, im talking about why the US is getting on IRAQ's ass RIGHT NOW.. not some impending futire prediction or some otehr lame bullshit.. what he is doing NOW..

[christophercles 0]

The "random goat herders" included an ex-australian, and at least one american that i know of that was holding a grenade when they had him on film.... yeah, random....

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Wobble @ May 10 2002,11:42)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">amnesty international

LOL, EVERY COUNTRY, ORGINIZATION, PERSON, GOAT AND OBJECT HAS BEEN CRITICIZED BY THEM,  The accuse britian of being a racist country rife with police brutality (which its not) and lots of other crap.. there is one country on their "list" (cant remember name) that is on it because it has had one unsolved murder..<span id='postcolor'>

It was you who said that international organizations thought that camp xray was ok. I corrected you.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">

You have picked up some random goat-herds in Afganistan and locked them up in cages in Cuba

goat hearders huh?

must of the folks at camp x-ray were in the big prison riot.. captured soldiers and officers and who knows what else..

and if they were only goat hearders, why would they repdidily lie and give different names every time they are asked.. if thats all they are they would come clean..

"goat hearders" typical simp, moronic bullshit.<span id='postcolor'>

What happened about the fifth amendment and the guilty about proven innocent? If sombody had picked me up like that I wound't cooperate either. As long as you don't respect the geneva conventions and insist on trying to interrogate them they have no obligations of making you happy.

As for the goat herders.. you don't know who the hell you have there.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">You wouldn't by any chance be living in a trailer and that Jerry Springer is your favourite show? Anybody with a little intelligence or education can se that the world's (not just US) interests in Kuwait is it's oil

first off, FUCK YOU ASSHOLE! ive got your jerry springer ya fucking prick,

<span id='postcolor'>

LMAO! Boy are you gullible. I planted a bait and you swallowed it. You certainly have what takes to be on Jerry Springer. Thank you for prooving my point much better then I could.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">second.. fuck kuate, im not talking about kuate, im talking about why the US is getting on IRAQ's ass RIGHT NOW.. not some impending futire prediction or some otehr lame bullshit.. what he is doing NOW..<span id='postcolor'>

Now it is for political reasons. Bush wants to get reelected. And of course finish off his daddys work. The national threat that Bush is considered about is potentially a democrat candidate being elected president next time.

As for the first gulf war, read Tex' posts a couple of times. If you still don't get it ask one of your cats to explain it to you.

[christophercles 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ May 10 2002,20:01)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">You wouldn't by any chance be living in a trailer and that Jerry Springer is your favourite show? Anybody with a little intelligence or education can se that the world's (not just US) interests in Kuwait is it's oil

first off, FUCK YOU ASSHOLE! ive got your jerry springer ya fucking prick,

<span id='postcolor'><span id='postcolor'>

and I find it funny, that he was kidding, and you couldnt even understand it! hmmmmm.....

[Pete 1]

there is one country on their "list" (cant remember name) that is on it because it has had one unsolved murder..

sweden.

its not that simple as "unsolved murder"...if it would be then sweden would have the worlds most effective police force

in this case (im sure its explained on amnestys page) the police killed this man while arresting him, and then falsified testimonies and did a lot to prevent the case to be opened and investigated again...its not about just a murder, its about police/goverment corruption.

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Pete @ May 10 2002,12:06)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">there is one country on their "list" (cant remember name) that is on it because it has had one unsolved murder..

sweden.

its not that simple as "unsolved murder"...if it would be then sweden would have the worlds most effective police force

in this case (im sure its explained on amnestys page) the police killed this man while arresting him, and then falsified testimonies and did a lot to prevent the case to be opened and investigated again...its not about just a murder, its about police/goverment corruption.<span id='postcolor'>

Yes, exactly. I think it is entirely correct that they put Sweden on the list for that. A couple police officers killed a black guy (probably out of racism) by among other things jumping on his chest. The police claimed that he was resisting arrests but forensics showed otherwise. Yet the case was dismissed a couple of times. It really sucks. Now they are reopening the case, but they have done that a couple of times and closed it pretty quickly.

[christophercles 0]

As if this hasnt happened in every country on earth.

[Pete 1]

he was not a black guy, he was finnish and his name was Osmo Vallo.

otherwise entirely correct by denoir.

amnesty int is a VERY good organisation, one should not ignore them when they object about something...we already talked a lot about camp X-ray, and in my opinion its still not anything usa should be very proud over.

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Pete @ May 10 2002,12:15)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">he was not a black guy, he was finnish and his name was Osmo Vallo.

otherwise entirely correct by denoir.<span id='postcolor'>

Really? Hmm.. why did I think he was black?.. never mind. You learn something every day

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">amnesty int is a VERY good organisation, one should not ignore them when they object about something...we already talked a lot about camp X-ray, and in my opinion its still not anything usa should be very proud over.<span id='postcolor'>

I think that Amnesty tends to exaggerate things but in general they are a very good organization to have around.

[Tex -USMC- 0]

The situation at Camp X-Ray is at best irregular, and at worst, illegal. We rcapture these guys, who by the way, very few are actually Afghanis, many are foreign nationals (coincidentally, many are Arabic). So, how do we treat them? If we treat them as POWs, then we would be violating the Geneva Convention because we are interrogating them. Im not debating whether the Geneva Convention was flawed or not, Im just stating how it is.

Conversely, if we treat them like criminals, we are violating our own rules on that subject. We are holding them for large periods of time, under heavily armed guard, without actually charging them with anything. This is UnConstitutional, and I can imagine that this sends a somewhat skewed image to the rest of the world. We are holding these guys a la 'material witnesses' and yet we have Marines guarding them with enough weapons to hold off a battalion. Once again, Im not debating whether we should or not, just how things are.

I cant understand the bitterness that Americans hold towards the detainees at Guantanamo, because as far as we know, they havent done anything wrong, we have no evidence against them, and yet we treat them like they walked out of the rubble of WTC 1 with AK47s and big smiles on their faces. But I can see the possible use of questioning them. However, the idiotic public relations of the Bush administration and the military's naturally undiplomatic attitude have exacerbated the issue to where it is now.

[Guest]

Wow, believe it or not: Tex, this is the second time in this thread that I agree with you entirely

[RedStar 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Pete @ May 10 2002,12:15)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">amnesty int is a VERY good organisation, one should not ignore them when they object about something...we already talked a lot about camp X-ray, and in my opinion its still not anything USA should be very proud over.<span id='postcolor'>

Amnesty international are a hypocritical, political minded organisation that only comments on things that will boost their own creditability.

During the 70's & 80's it claimed that there was no torture or ill-treatment of political prisoners of war in Castlereagh holding centre or Long Kesh prison by the British Army or the RUC in Northern Ireland yet in the 90's they released an article about the torture and treatment of POW's in these same places.

Also, around 2 years ago when the Turkish government murdered some 29 prisoners that were on hungerstrike over torture and ill treatment in prisons across the country with gunfire and chemical weapons the local branch of Amnesty Int just so happened to be out of the country. The torture and ill treatment of Turkish prisoners is still happening today, as is the prisoner’s hungerstrike, which has claimed the lives of 36 prisoners and 25 family members, yet Amnesty international will not comment.

[RedStar 0]

sorry double post