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ffur2007slx2_5

Do you think it's necessary for BIS providing lockable binPBO?

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If you want to protect just one aspect, p3d files, then most people would say you are treating them as special. All I asked for was equal protection for all development efforts.

And that is something i understand although i am still thinking you are comparing 2 very different things

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And that is something i understand although i am still thinking you are comparing 2 very different things

Perhaps in your mind they are different, I'm not you.

We can all agree that the facts support some models having been stolen.

Some here believe extra measures need to take to protect 3rd-party work.

My opinion (and it's opinion) is that unless such measures are fairly and equally applied to all components of a PBO, the result will be Balkanization of the developers. That would be just as bad as what is happening now with no protection measures.

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THE NEW IDEA IS:I think that the new BinPBO tool can provide for developers code their work as long as they think it's excellent. And he can no longer code his work once he has used up that function. That means not every work will be locked and only the best can be kept from abuse.

I kinda like that idea. :)

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Ohhh, how you like to turn things around now. You have said modding is about fun, and you do it for yourself first and foremost.

Now, if that is true, who is there to hurry you? Your employer? You will loose anything if you were to send a damn PM and wait 2-3 days for an answer?

Upcoming event? My own need for speed? Need to have it working so I can continue with what I really want to work with? Why am I even answering?

It is NOT about this community. How many times does one need to say it to you? IT is not about the fear of someone from this community stealing from someone else, because that can be taken care after all.

I'm addressing the need to protect pbo's (vs models). If it's not about us, then why on earth do some feel the need to protect the pbo? Like this:

I love the hypocrisy of the people against having locakable pbo's:

"I think that the people who want to protect their work are selfish because I want to be able to poke around in their work without permission"

:j:

When did we ever need permission to poke around in other peoples work? When all the fun in a game is removed (for me, poking around trying to be creative is more fun than actually playing the game).

Why are you ppl against the OPTION (which has already been developed by BIS) being given to the addon makers to lock their PBOs.

It has been said before: it doesn't mean everyone will take that step. Some will, some might, some won't.

I still don't get what is the big deal about it.

Eliteness. The elite will lock theirs, and those poking around all have only bad stuff to learn from. Just look at what happened in the flight sim community. Most of the elite went payware with protected stuff. And don't expect noobs to get answers from them. The elite only helps the elite. That goes to emphasize the works of the elite. I left flightsim community when nobody was talking about freeware stuff anymore, and the payware side turned more ugly than you can believe. Nobody paid attention to freeware anymore. Freeware pretty much died (in my view anyway) as a result of this eliteness. Some openly admitted they went payware only to be taken seriously. Freeware used to be thriving, and good quality. Now (or at least when I left) it was pretty much just crap. Eliteness as a result of payware (here, protected work), completely strangled the thriving freeware.

I think Bohemia needs to create a poll, open to addonmakers only, on this issue. Options 3, 5, and 7 would be removed. Addon makers are the ones who would benefit from this, so they should be the ones discussing it.

I hope those options are not removed. I don't consider myself a modder, in the sense that I plan to release anything of my own. Addon makers might be the only ones that would benefit from it, but the rest of us would seriously be hurt from it, so they/we should be allowed their saying too.

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You guys sure do dream big. I cant seem to think of any game software developer that protects 3rd party modifications an not even protect there own. But oh well Mod at your own risk. Thats about all I can see to be the answer to the issue. love you guys. <3 :p

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Argument:

"We need to be able to look at addons/missions pbo to fix possible problems."

Fact:

Well, if looking at pbo's (any sort) could help make errorfree addons/missions, how come there regulary addons/missions released which do spam the rpt?

Even looking at BIS officially released ArmA 1 MLOD's aswell as the already existing documentation of all sorts should be enough to prevent almost all possible bugs. If this isn't sufficient, how could poking around in user created content could make it any better?

Argument:

"I want to have it fixed because i need it immediately"

Fact:

Well, from the people i know, almost all have several projects goin at the same time. So asking the creator of a problematic addon for a fix/asking for permission to fix it for personal use and in the meantime working on another project will probably let you do more work in less time since you don't block yourself.

Argument:

"If content becomes lockable, the community will turn into a elitist crowd."

Fact:

Either people think they are elite or they don't. Having the option to activate a copy/hack protection wont change peoples mind magically. In fact there are quite a few addonmakers that do modelling for a living. Those people do love making addons and don't mind to make them for free although they could sell these models themselves if this would have been their interest. And the very same people i see regulary in the editing forum answering questions and helping as much as they can. You really think they will suddenly change their mind just because they can tick a encryption box?

Argument:

"When did we ever need permission to poke around in other peoples work?"

Fact:

Please make your exact address public, i'm sure some people will be interested to poke around in your appartement/house. If the door will be locked, everyone is allowed to break it up with any method that works (including, but not limited to, explosives). Don't think that only because it is your property that anyone would need a permission to do so. Every loss/dammage you and/or your house suffers has to be accepted to keep the spirit of "open houses" alive.

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Myke;1779479']

Argument:

"When did we ever need permission to poke around in other peoples work?"

Fact:

Please make your exact address public' date=' i'm sure some people will be interested to poke around in your appartement/house. If the door will be locked, everyone is allowed to break it up with any method that works (including, but not limited to, explosives). Don't think that only because it is your property that anyone would need a permission to do so. Every loss/dammage you and/or your house suffers has to be accepted to keep the spirit of "open houses" alive.[/quote']

its two diffrent things looking at someones work and using somones work.

why is that so hard to understand.

oh. my address.

Contry : Norway

State : Troms

Town :skjervøy

Street :nrv 4

now. i dear you to come and poke around in my appartment.

i have some :yay: waiting for you

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Myke, your "facts" seem to be thinly veiled rants, suppositions, or just irrelevant to the discussion. It's easy to appear to win an argument if you play both sides. This is why we have a forum for this, so that you can deal with actual opinions, or at least the originator of them. I believe each side has put their case eloquently enough, trying to simplify for effect isn't going anywhere.

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Quite the contrary I see Mykes points hitting pretty much dead center on the "other sides" "facts" in dissolving them. There is already massive amounts of reference material for people to use let alone the fact that the A1 mlods pretty much tell everything you need to know to get started. I do believe a lot of you people object to this simply because it would take away your ability to reconfigure other peoples addons to your liking, to be used in your clans games the way you like or other similar events and by doing so you are modifying and distributing other peoples addons. The second you send the modified addon to another person to be used in actual playing you've crossed the line and this is what I object. If the addon is not good enough don't use it. Or help the addon maker to make it better but remember that the person has every right to refuse your help.

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F1: Numerous good reasons have been given. Now this is also about missions? Coming to think of it, I think I want to be able to protect our squad.paa, because I don't want to see it misused by anyone else. There are no facts in your fact here - it even has two questions.

F2: My argument is that I shouldn't have to. It's like having to ask for permission to use it for each island I want to use it on. And as already stated, it's not always about fixing bugs, but doing things the creator couldn't possibly want to support (like a repaint for everyone who needs one). Again, there is no facts in your fact, only a personal opinion on how things should work. And mine differs - sorry :)

F3: I've seen it happen before. Also doesn't have to be todays modders, but future ones. It might not change their current attitude (if they already are elitist), but it least it won't cause the rest of us additional grief over it since they can't enact on it as much as they would like.

F4: Are you serious? :confused:

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Also I would like to point out that there already seems to be an elitist group of people who seem to think they can do whatever they want with anyones addon simply because they can or have the knowhow.

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I started modding in 1998, everything back then was simple, now its all MODDING WOW we need to get in on that action, gaming companies quickly started putting their heavy weight on that with encryption and turning into DLC content which was DONT forget started by modders. Now you pay for that shit, because Game Devs learned that they can be their own kinda modders which insted of freedom, you now have to pay for. Bla bla bla my rant about that anyway

Look i completely understand that you may want to protect your work from outside sources or from within, but MODDING is a free and an open source scene, if you decide to submit your work carried out by yourself or anybody else to the public then you are taking the risk yourself, that other parties may use your work for their own. And you can scream shout and even have a paddy about it but you released it knowing that it could and possiby happen. The only thing you can do if it does is make it known to the community you are representing that your work has been used against your wishes and your own friends or fanbase will simply run havok against those who have done so or simply contact the xxxx download site or forum and have their account destoryed or removed. Thats the only power you have.

Alot of modders these days seem to think they are somehow mini-game companies or something, im sorry but end of the day were nothing but a bunch of hobby modders. If you wanna get serious then you need to put a price tag on your creations to gain some rights to it.

Edited by Opticalsnare

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Myke;1779479']Argument:

"We need to be able to look at addons/missions pbo to fix possible problems."

Fact:

Well' date=' if looking at pbo's (any sort) could help make errorfree addons/missions, how come there regulary addons/missions released which do spam the rpt?

Even looking at BIS officially released ArmA 1 MLOD's aswell as the already existing documentation of all sorts should be enough to prevent almost all possible bugs. If this isn't sufficient, how could poking around in user created content could make it any better?

[b']Argument:[/b]

"I want to have it fixed because i need it immediately"

Fact:

Well, from the people i know, almost all have several projects goin at the same time. So asking the creator of a problematic addon for a fix/asking for permission to fix it for personal use and in the meantime working on another project will probably let you do more work in less time since you don't block yourself.

Argument:

"If content becomes lockable, the community will turn into a elitist crowd."

Fact:

Either people think they are elite or they don't. Having the option to activate a copy/hack protection wont change peoples mind magically. In fact there are quite a few addonmakers that do modelling for a living. Those people do love making addons and don't mind to make them for free although they could sell these models themselves if this would have been their interest. And the very same people i see regulary in the editing forum answering questions and helping as much as they can. You really think they will suddenly change their mind just because they can tick a encryption box?

Argument:

"When did we ever need permission to poke around in other peoples work?"

Fact:

Please make your exact address public, i'm sure some people will be interested to poke around in your appartement/house. If the door will be locked, everyone is allowed to break it up with any method that works (including, but not limited to, explosives). Don't think that only because it is your property that anyone would need a permission to do so. Every loss/dammage you and/or your house suffers has to be accepted to keep the spirit of "open houses" alive.

More posts like this, please. This is also what I'm seeing are some major points for the cons side, not strawmen arguments as DMarkwick would have it. If this is not what the cons means, they should make a post like this to clarify the argument.

Myke, your "facts" seem to be thinly veiled rants, suppositions, or just irrelevant to the discussion. It's easy to appear to win an argument if you play both sides. This is why we have a forum for this, so that you can deal with actual opinions, or at least the originator of them. I believe each side has put their case eloquently enough, trying to simplify for effect isn't going anywhere.

Then make a post in the manner you think it should be done.

Also, your rant about how people need to learn from others is not true. Noone needs the indiscriminate and limitless right to open someone else's files to learn. This does not mean that noone needs to learn from example. There are plenty of examples out there for people to follow without the aforementioned limitless and indiscriminate right.

I see that all of the people that talk about opening other peoples' files don't even mention the licenses that the files come with. F- grade for respect. We should take the material in this thread and make a whole new topic to single handedly debunk all of the good will present in the 'Why Licenses Do Matter' topic.

Edited by Max Power

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I see that all of the people that talk about opening other peoples' files don't even mention the licenses that the files come with. F- grade for respect. We should take the material in this thread and make a whole new topic to single handedly debunk all of the good will present in the 'Why Licenses Do Matter' topic.
so if a script has its license inside the pbo.and as many scripters do put them as a header in the scripts.

how can i know about its license without opening the pbo and/or looking at the script?

and again. and again, and again. and again. most of us do repsect the authors work.

thats why its common sense to ask for premission to modify or use the work from a author.

yes and there is some out there who dosent care about licences. but that happens everywhere. not only here.

what this will result in is that someone will release a depbo-unlocker to the public. more encryptions == more fun for some people.

resulting in every dlc released will be able to be depboed. and i do not think bis would be to happy about that.

thats what happend with pbo. we coulndt open them. so someone made a depbo. it will happen over again trust me

Edited by nuxil

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I see that all of the people that talk about opening other peoples' files don't even mention the licenses that the files come with. F- grade for respect.

That's being ignorant. Why do I have to mention them, and by not doing so I earn a F- for respect? That's just ... WOW!

As for learning, you claim there are so many examples. There isn't. Most of the stuff I've seen are outdated and tends to be completely out of context, and even have malpractices. By looking at the pros, you learn a hell of a lot more.

Real experience for me: Trying out that GroupHUD thingy (sthud?) from ShackTac, I wanted to figure out how they were able to use a map display the way they did. I found some clues, and tried to implement them using those "many examples" you claim exist. But none worked properly whatsoever. By studying the mod more, I found the trick where displays don't use findDisplay like in dialogs (of the time), but instead relied on uiNamespace, and even a different syntax for controls. I had no idea, and in the end I was able to make some things for my mission that used that approach (now obsolete though).

And for the record, yes I read the license...

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Well I was going to suggest if you were at all worried about your own EGO getting the upper hand you might try not working on or releasing anything nor displaying any investment of time or care in work that you've then shared. But I see you've already mastered that.

Point taken :eek:

I understand the deep devotion people put into work they have created (or modded from the original developer) and applaud them for it.

If so deeply involved into what you are doing with this game then the likely action to take is submitting a resume to BIS. Unless you are already an employee then scratch that.

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Myke;1779479']Argument:

"We need to be able to look at addons/missions pbo to fix possible problems."

Fact:

Well' date=' if looking at pbo's (any sort) could help make errorfree addons/missions, how come there regulary addons/missions released which do spam the rpt?

Even looking at BIS officially released ArmA 1 MLOD's aswell as the already existing documentation of all sorts should be enough to prevent almost all possible bugs. If this isn't sufficient, how could poking around in user created content could make it any better?

[b']Argument:[/b]

"I want to have it fixed because i need it immediately"

Fact:

Well, from the people i know, almost all have several projects goin at the same time. So asking the creator of a problematic addon for a fix/asking for permission to fix it for personal use and in the meantime working on another project will probably let you do more work in less time since you don't block yourself.

Argument:

"If content becomes lockable, the community will turn into a elitist crowd."

Fact:

Either people think they are elite or they don't. Having the option to activate a copy/hack protection wont change peoples mind magically. In fact there are quite a few addonmakers that do modelling for a living. Those people do love making addons and don't mind to make them for free although they could sell these models themselves if this would have been their interest. And the very same people i see regulary in the editing forum answering questions and helping as much as they can. You really think they will suddenly change their mind just because they can tick a encryption box?

Argument:

"When did we ever need permission to poke around in other peoples work?"

Fact:

Please make your exact address public, i'm sure some people will be interested to poke around in your appartement/house. If the door will be locked, everyone is allowed to break it up with any method that works (including, but not limited to, explosives). Don't think that only because it is your property that anyone would need a permission to do so. Every loss/dammage you and/or your house suffers has to be accepted to keep the spirit of "open houses" alive.

QFT :yay:

More posts like this, please. This is also what I'm seeing are some major points for the cons side, not strawmen arguments as DMarkwick would have it. If this is not what the cons means, they should make a post like this to clarify the argument.

Then make a post in the manner you think it should be done.

Also, your rant about how people need to learn from others is not true. Noone needs the indiscriminate and limitless right to open someone else's files to learn. This does not mean that noone needs to learn from example. There are plenty of examples out there for people to follow without the aforementioned limitless and indiscriminate right.

I see that all of the people that talk about opening other peoples' files don't even mention the licenses that the files come with. F- grade for respect. We should take the material in this thread and make a whole new topic to single handedly debunk all of the good will present in the 'Why Licenses Do Matter' topic.

Seconded. It still boggles my mind just how hypocritical all the "you shouldn't be allowed to protect your content, because its selfish" crowd are..

Like I've said over and over and over; You do NOT need to look at other peoples addons to learn how to make addons. BIS has provided more than enough reference material.

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I admit that my last post was written provocatively. However, i stand for what it says.

There is no need to poke around in usermade content, there is already enough reference material around to learn from it., be it BIS sample models for ArmA 1 (which work 1:1 in ArmA 2 without adaption at all), be it already released open source material published by community members (myself i released some MLOD's to learn from it or even use directly) or at last tutorials (also there are some from me).

So whatever there is one has to learn, there is more than enough material to study.

If it's for fixing bugs or change settings in the config, also no need to poke around in the addon, just write yourself a replacement config and keep the original addon untouched.

And personally, myself i find it elitist to fix bugs/improve addons but keep them for myself (or my clan only) instead of sharing these improvements with the community or at least with the creator so he could include these fixes into his addon and release a fixed update.

@CarlGustaffa

It is about missions (aren't they pbo's aswell and include a lot of hard work), scripts, addons of any sort. Just everything that is created by the community.

And yes, i am serious. Either you respect property or you don't. You give a sh*t about IP in this community so why should anyone respect your property?

Myself i was interesting in something i saw in another addon and technically i could have just ripped the addon apart and take what i wanted or at least look how it was done. But instead i respected the license included with the addon and contacted the creator instead. And guess what happened, he sent me all files and explanations i needed to implement it into my work, including permission to do so, of course. So this resulted for me that i have what i needed, this person now knew that i do respect IP which leads to a friendship and one more person i can directly contact when i encounter a problem.

You might know what i'm doin so let me say: i never had to poke around in other addons without permission but i still always have learned what i needed to know. And that is the difference between you and me: you do poke around in addons to fix/improve for your own needs and thaths it. I do poke around in addons where i got permission to do so, i get my things fixed/improved and i make new friends. Ever thought about that you don't get permissions because people tend to know that you don't respect IP.

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@DM: Yes I do (for the scripting part, I'm not an "addon creator" at all). You can't dictate what I need. ;) You screaming about it doesn't change that.

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You screaming about it doesn't change that.

Screaming would be in ALL CAPS.

Lern2internet :yay:

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You do NOT need to look at other peoples addons to learn how to make addons. BIS has provided more than enough reference material.

BS, that faaarrrrr from 100% correct.

Tell me where anyone finds suitable references for;

- Large or small moving ships with multiple turrets

- Aircraft- multi load-out proxy set-up

- Static missile launchers

- Scud Launchers

Sure, theres lots of info in the ArmA1 samples, but not all variations, and not ArmA2 specials, and the config files are BASE configs, no examples written for people to generate their own stand-alone addon.

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@DM: I was referring to §12, or don't you read the rules? ;)

Myke;1779635']You give a sh*t about IP in this community

Wrong. I just happen to have a different idea on what IP is. You take that stuff way too serious for non commercial interests. For me IP is like the "right to bear arms" - completely misused for what it's intended use once was.

IP Objectives:

Financial incentive

Economic growth

Where does poking around share any relevance to IP Objectives?

I have never had the intention on stepping on toes or be a "bad guy". But I'll wage my right to use a little bit of common sense thank you very much! I am a grown up' date=' despite what you might think. You seem to be in complete hatred of me. And what did I do to deserve that? Absolutely nothing except express my feeling. Read my opening post again.

Myke;1779635']So this resulted for me that i have what i needed, this person now knew that i do respect IP which leads to a friendship and one more person i can directly contact when i encounter a problem.

So we approach a scenario a little differently, so what? Do you hate everybody who doesn't share your political views as well? I hope not.

Myke;1779635']And that is the difference between you and me: you do poke around in addons to fix/improve for your own needs and thaths it.

Nice. I get that right after showing a different example.

Myke;1779635']Ever thought about that you don't get permissions because people tend to know that you don't respect IP.

Where did that come from? I respect IP and I get my permissions when I plan to use something of it in a more direct fashion. We have different opinions about where common sense belongs in all this. Get back to me when you find something I've released that is considered "bad". Deal with it instead of trying to insult or ridicule me.

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People are somehow forgetting that this is a freeware community and not open-source. I've provided sources for my models, wrote tutorials, made videos, wrote software and had enough consultation PMs to keep me emptying my inbox every week. I'm gonna go ahead and say it: I don't want you poking around in my addon. Don't care what you want. I want the right to say "ah this ones special I think I'm gonna protect it". Want the info? Please contact me and I'll be more than happy to help.

@CG

The objective of IP in a freeware community is protecting something you made and love from being violated by others. If I pain a portrait of a friend and give it to them for free I wouldn't like them fixing it or adding to it. When I write free software I don't want people to poke around in my source code. With add-ons all I want is to provide cool free things for the community to play with. Call me elitist if you want.

Oh I also think they should make ur posts here open source for everyone to poke around in and edit. Wanna bet it's gonna be abused a little?

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To be honest, I think making comparisons to poking around an addon to poking around someone's house, or poking around someone's forum post, to be the extremes on either end of the scale and not really realistic comparisons to make in this situation.

I'm going to end my involvement in this discussion by stating that I see the ability to lock pbos until given permission to only hurt the already fragile modding community remaining in Arma 2, as if we are to take everything that we've already discussed in terms of this topic out of the equation, what happens when you simply become no longer contactable? People will never be able to access your work again.

Oh how I miss the glory days of OFP... :(

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Well another option beside locking and not releasing addons is to leave them unsupported as "beta" or "RC" or even only as "wip". ;)

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