Fallujah City

[enad 11]

Just saying Shezan, I don't think you need permission to use OPX Buildings, he hasn't been around for quite awhile and many map makers have used his buildings, I believe he released them as open source. I'm not totally positive though.

[shezan74 11]

I know enad, but i want be totally clear and correct with everyone. I know i can have avgani also as required map for fallujah, but in this case i cannot be fully responsible of the whole package.

So i need his ok for extracting needed buildings from his package (with full credits, of course) and include into fallujah.

I don't want shame on me, after so much time spent for making islands. If i will not have permissions or not have a contact with opx... I will start learn oxigen modelling tool :) my needs are really small :)

About oa buildings, this was a thought when i needed a mosque for the city, but "breaking" requisites for A2 to combined ops is not on my plans at the moment.

And framerate could suffer by using the fantastic oa mosque... on the "city of 200 mosques" :D

Edited October 11, 2010 by shezan74

[Fox '09 14]

i agree, the mosque is nice but laggy lol ... OPX's mosque would be great for this though. I dont think any oa objects are really needed for this map , most a1 and a2 stuff do fine.

[Snake Man 401]

So i need his ok for extracting needed buildings from his package (with full credits, of course) and include into fallujah.

To me its amazing that you are terrain tool developer yet you are not grasping the most simplest of terrain making things there is... that you do NOT add objects into your terrain pbo/release.

Is there some language barrier or are you just refusing to accept this fact or what is going on here?

[Fox '09 14]

I have to agree. OPX buildings can be found separately if i am correct. . I run plenty of afganistan and iraq maps , they all use opx .. but they were never packed with opx objects - and for a good reason too. There is no point in tagging something under your own name if you don't modify it , and it is already separate ...

[ArmaholicBR 10]

Let's please respect the author's opinion, afterall it's still his island, and WIP.

I think what's going on is that with OPX buildings + more complex vegetation the performance wouldn't be as good, and for a city that big it's completely understandable..

I'm with shezan74, performance needs to be the main concern for this kind of map. Have you tested with OA buildings/bushes? I think It would be better making it C.O. dependant than adding new objects..what do you think?

[comarsky 0]

Shezan are there any chances of you putting some of the enterable buildings from OA in?

The map is sheer awesome.

Due to performance and the amount of houses this will be difficult, but maybe some in the outer area around th city maybe...

[shezan74 11]

To me its amazing that you are terrain tool developer yet you are not grasping the most simplest of terrain making things there is... that you do NOT add objects into your terrain pbo/release.

Is there some language barrier or are you just refusing to accept this fact or what is going on here?

I've developed some tools for island makers. They're available on the net over several ArmA2 sites. (thank you webmasters ;) )

Spritz and fallujah are available on the net, on all sites that are pleased to host my works

What happens if Opteryx will ask to remove his map from Kelly heroes hosting, as like he does on Armaholic? (with his good reasons, i suppose)

We will share the Avgani on the wild, on emule, to keep all other islands up and running?

I will be more pleased to continue with suggestions and requests (or more probably bugs :) ) on this thread, instead of a philosophical discussion about how to pack islands :)

[bushlurker 45]

So i need his ok for extracting needed buildings from his package (with full credits, of course) and include into fallujah.

I'm fairly sure what Shez means is that he's already assembled a matching "fallujah objects" pack for this map, containing all the custom stuff he's using - A1 stuff at the moment mostly, it seems... I've done the same for my project - Icebreakrs "ibr_towns" is basically the same thing... technically, if we were all using these A1 assets as standard, we could all just make our islands reliant on the appropriate individual CAA1 .pbo - they're the same models - in their original clothes - already packaged and available... problem is - we can't leave things alone usually, so we retexture, use the new A2 materials, etc - so the models get retagged - not to "claim ownership", all we made were the new clothes usually, but to prevent conflicts with anyone elses addon using the same named stuff...

So far, so good...

To include Opteryx's buildings in the usual way, Shezan could simply make the .pbo's a requirement - anyone without the appropriate .pbos would need to source and download them and/or Shez would have to make sure they were archived somewhere and always be available for download - otherwise his island is unusable...

Since Opteryx went into self-imposed AWOL his stuff has been used in this way... by our own self-imposed rules, technically thats OK - he released his stuff for the community to use - as it is without messing with it (the usual rule), so using it as it is is OK... But theres another issue - this is a BIG map - a hefty download... since Shezan is using a lot of custom A1 buildings theyre all in the objects pack - another big required download... if he'd maybe only use one or two of the OPX models - the mosque, etc - it'd be a lot less possible downloading, and avoid any potential trouble sourcing other peoples stuff if he just included the few needed models in the existing objects pack... However, by our own rules again - this level of "using" does require asking first, and Opteryx made a point of being unavailable to ask... so it's a tough one...

An example....

I've got a football field in my map, and since I'm not up to modelling floodlights I asked Pathetic Berzerker if I could use the lighting towers from his PB Stadium addon release... I could have just made the stadium addon a "requirement" - it's out there and freely available... but its also 30mb or so - the floodlight model is 1mb and it's all I'm using...

Furthermore - technically I could just go ahead and do that - make PB's stadium package a requirement - use his models and not even bother to ask permission... they were released - they're there to be used... this is the current OPX situation...

Since PB is actually around I asked anyway out of politeness, and he generously gave the permission I was hoping for to just include the model in my "bushmodels" pack - my island download will be 29mb lighter and since he even more generously provided an editable mlod model - it'll be tweaked and retextured as well...

Happy days for Inverness Caledonian Thistle... Big Credits for Pathetic Berzerker - thats the way the community works (on a good day :D)...

Anyway - since, unlike good 'ol Pathetic Berzerker, Opteryx hasn't been contacted so far - Shezan is rightly unwilling to just go ahead... since plan B is the full "requirements" thing I mentioned above and its only maybe for a few models Shezans next question is - is it worth it?

From the way I read things - and, lets not forget Shezan isn't a native English speaker - his current answer is "not really... well, maybe, but I'd rather try and do the ask Opteryx option or just make do without"...

B

Edited October 12, 2010 by Bushlurker

[katipo66 94]

I don't want shame on me, after so much time spent for making islands. If i will not have permissions or not have a contact with opx... I will start learn oxigen modelling tool :) my needs are really small :)

All good shezan, just do what you do, its worked great this far, i want you too learn oxygen :D

[comarsky 0]

You got the point Bushlurker...Anyway we got some plan B to come out from the "impasse"...

We still have a lot of ongoing work on the island so we will probably focus on that first, then we will think of mosquee "problem"...

[kdjac 19]

This is what Arma needs a proper well done city map.

Great to play on.

http://homepage.eircom.net/~kdjac/co10cleanup21fall.fallujah.pbo

Coop test mission with a few objectives.

[emcnally 0]

Amazing map. So much detail in it.

[Snake Man 401]

What happens if Opteryx will ask to remove his map from Kelly heroes hosting, as like he does on Armaholic?

Then you download it elsewhere. Use google.

If you are referring that an author of released addon/mod comes back and says "I demand all copies of my work being removed from internet!" then I don't know what to say except that you must be kidding or are seriously living in a dream world where such things can happen.

When author comes to internet, releases publicly free addon/mod/tool/thingy for in this case for ArmA 2, then its out, its on the wild, there is NO recalling it anymore. Any such ideas would be pure fantasy. That would never going to work.

We will share the Avgani on the wild, on emule, to keep all other islands up and running?

Emule? hehe I cant even remember when that was used.

I will be more pleased to continue with suggestions and requests (or more probably bugs :) ) on this thread, instead of a philosophical discussion about how to pack islands

I feel bad that such a nice work like you've done, is diminished with bad design. When the stuff is in-game nobody knows where and how the objects got there, but if all authors would release their stuff again and again with all objects packed in the archive, then our ArmA 2 mod directories would be several terabytes in size. Is this what you want?

This is not a matter of opinion, this is how its done, its well documented back in 2004 OFP days in WrpTool manual. All I'm trying is to help you to make better (terrain) design / releases. I hope you finally start to realize it.

BTW it would really be shame if this all comes down to translating English to Italian which I assume is your language. Perhaps you could ask real life friend to translate stuff to you, using google translation might not give the proper wording of text. You can of course PM me for more step by step discussion of this matter, but dunno how much more plainly written text I could do there either.

[ArmaholicBR 10]

@Snakeman: I don't know where you see a problem with his map, this size of the files are OK, performance is also good. The author has also said that he's done some testing and already explained his opinion about OPX stuff..let's leave this decision to him.

Little things I've found:

Some of the bridge's interceptions disappear from a distance, leaving it flying on the water..

The base your friend created is well designed, but most of the tents/covers are flying also, with nothing to hold on.

Ambient civilians and ambient vehicles don't seem to work :(

Thx again, and keep up with the good work! :D

Edited October 12, 2010 by ArmaholicBR

[cyclone83 6]

Oh, ambient modules are a "must work" for a map like this one! Ehrm, PLEASE :o

[Rg 0]

shezan74,

Don't listen to the bitchers, your doing a badass job. A HUGE city, which is surprisingly detailed for it's size with GREAT performance...and that performance is greatly needed when trying to populate a city like this. It feels like we got a VBS addon for free. :D

While the OPX objects would look better and make the map more authentic, a big downside with them (aside from possible performance loss, although I wouldn't expect much) is the fact that they are not AI friendly. Only a few of his buildings can be occupied by AI, so you have all that lost potential of AI only in the streets or on the ground, not in or on buildings.

What you currently have is a great mix with tons of occupiable buildings to bring the city alive and add that exciting challenge.

Keep up the good work dude!

[comarsky 0]

Dear Sankeman,

I feel bad that such a nice work like you've done, is diminished with bad design.

1) I really don't think there is a bad design in our work, if that is your opinion i'm sorry for you. We are doing our best to keep the high standards BIS and the community has provided and taught us.

Elsewhere we received a lot of compliments, even if it is a the beta...

2) As we already said this is a beta structure of the island and you are hardly judging an unfinished work. Does somebody hasn't understood this is still a beta? You can just take a look at Fallujah project on Dev-heaven to figure how much work we still have to do.

3) OPX is a high standard, but we really don't feel so attached to it that much we couldn't do without.

4) I am amused about how much it has never be more true that it's so easier to judge other people work than your own. I could write tons of page talking about a leak of design in PMC Desert Island, that even is more "finished" than our island, but this isn't the right topic.

When the stuff is in-game nobody knows where and how the objects got there, but if all authors would release their stuff again and again with all objects packed in the archive, then our ArmA 2 mod directories would be several terabytes in size. Is this what you want?

Are you maybe talking that you done exactly the same thing we done? And that is repacking some of the istan houses from A1 for our needs, as you done, even here we just have some BIS houses in common, but where is the problem?

You shouldn't have it, in the internet era, what are some 50mb of extra stuff in all the cases of the world...

Are you proposing to create a standard addon of A1 House? Let me undestrand where is the constructive part of your talkings...

For the moment we wanted to have a "no addon" dependancy project, and we've done that, it's a choice, a design line project, call it whatever you want to call it.

PS: my Arma dir is already a terabyte or so...

All I'm trying is to help you to make better (terrain) design / releases. I hope you finally start to realize it.

I could realize it, but i can't see where...Was that the OPX talking? if it is, my answer is: the choice to use OPX is and remain our choice, and we are working on that...About the "feelings" that the city gives, we are working on that too..simple no? no barrier...

Greetings

---------- Post added at 11:53 ---------- Previous post was at 11:49 ----------

Little things I've found:

Some of the bridge's interceptions disappear from a distance, leaving it flying on the water..

LOD BIS problem of the bridge

The base your friend created is well designed, but most of the tents/covers are flying also, with nothing to hold on.

We will work on that this afternoon. We are aware of those problems. It will be fixed for next release. Or at least I hope ;)

Ambient civilians and ambient vehicles don't seem to work :(

Same of above, but don't except to use much civilians, I've already make some tries to use some civilan population in my missions, with poor result.

Even if we manage to maintain good city performance, the module is really heavy, on CPU and FPS. obviously i will try to tweak the module in the better way, but i'm not excepting great results. It will always be better to put some population the old fashioned way, manually!

Thx again, and keep up with the good work! :D

Thanks to you, will do!

Edited October 12, 2010 by SoLoSniper

[comarsky 0]

A HUGE city, which is surprisingly detailed for it's size with GREAT performance...and that performance is greatly needed when trying to populate a city like this. It feels like we got a VBS addon for free. :D

Performances are our concern. About VBS, totally right. ;)

While the OPX objects would look better and make the map more authentic is the fact that they are not AI friendly. Only a few of his buildings can be occupied by AI, so you have all that lost potential of AI only in the streets or on the ground, not in or on buildings.

Good point!

What you currently have is a great mix with tons of occupiable buildings to bring the city alive and add that exciting challenge.

Another point! And we still plan to add more "featured" area, embassy, mil base, mosquee, ecc...planned ;)

Keep up the good work dude!

Will do! Thanks!

[thedudeabides 40]

Will you add a govement center?

[comarsky 0]

Will you add a govement center?

At least some representation of it, surely.

[Snake Man 401]

I don't know where you see a problem with his map

I've explained it already, better read the posts again.

1) I really don't think there is a bad design in our work, if that is your opinion i'm sorry for you. We are doing our best to keep the high standards BIS and the community has provided and taught us.

No he's not, the community is talking to shezan74 here and he just dismiss it.

2) As we already said this is a beta structure of the island and you are hardly judging an unfinished work.

Excuse me, what does version had to do with the included external addons?

4) I am amused about how much it has never be more true that it's so easier to judge other people work than your own. I could write tons of page talking about a leak of design in PMC Desert Island, that even is more "finished" than our island

What the hell are you babbling about?

Never have I criticized the terrain work, the actual "artwork", just the fact that its commonly known to be WRONG to include objects into your terrains pbo files or the pbo's into the archive which you are releasing it.

Sorry guy but you are barking at the wrong tree hehe, but no worries I wont take offense on your mistake, no problemo :)

Are you maybe talking that you done exactly the same thing we done? And that is repacking some of the istan houses from A1 for our needs

Sorry but you have absolutely no clue whatsoever of what you're talking about, so lets stick to the topic.

the choice to use OPX is and remain our choice

Again what the are you talking about... I have never said that shezan74 should either use or not to use addon XYZ in his terrain, never.

I have said that if you use addon XYZ in your terrain do not include it in the terrain pbo/archive!

Damn... how many different ways do you guys want me to explain the same simple thing?

[shezan74 11]

I have said that if you use addon XYZ in your terrain do not include it in the terrain pbo/archive!

Damn... how many different ways do you guys want me to explain the same simple thing?

Aaaah it's clear now... if we use other complete addons we will not release them with our works! (like berghoff trees that could be downloaded from another page, if used).

All there? you're good with english language, but we can do something better in explaining your thought to dummies! :D I'm a italian, so you can use google translator next time. There is an option from english to italian too ;)

If i'm still out of the path i definitely need an english course... maybe when i've finished work on Fallujah i will take an holiday @ London

Ciao ;)

[dmarkwick 261]

Heh, well speaking personally I'm glad the addon was included ;) however I appreciate the principle. I'd only say that the required addon link must always be included alongside the island link, saves people having to search it out :)

I can report that Falluja works wonderfully with DAC3, been getting some outstanding gameplay with it. At first I was sceptical of such a large urban map, I didn't see the point of so much city, but it seems to suit DAC3 perfectly. Great performance too considering the complexity, a great achievement.

[bad benson 1733]

@shezan: outstanding map. and imho a nice move with those buildings.

@Snake Man: i think one of the original points of shezan was that he didn't want to have an addon dependency just because he uses one or two opx buildings. that's why he thought about extracting them from the original pbos.

because obviously he won't replace every building by a new one (remember? 300.000) but instead add some things like a mosque to have middle eastern landmarks.

@DMarkwick: could u upload the experiment (mission.sqm)? i'm really intrested in checking it out.