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nkenny

New Recoil and the AK-74 Series

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The AK-74 series have an exaggerated vertical recoil.

Point of Discussion:

Much like the majority of players, I enjoy the new recoil system introduced in 1.54 (and the betas). I understand that tweaking recoils is still a work in progress -- therefore I'm making this thread to highlight one of the problem areas.

The Ak-74 series weapons used to be one of the best assault rifles in Arma2, particularly in the engagement ranges seen in Chernarus. Comfortable firerate, low recoil, and reasonably accurate (not to mention plenty of ammo) made it a natural choice. With the new recoil that is no longer the case -- infact the new recoil engine pretty much kills the Ak-74 series weapons.

Argument

The AK-74 has almost TWICE the vertical recoil of a AR-15 based design. Even the AKM is more comfortable to shoot. This runs totally contrary to the spirit of the weapon system.

  • 5.45x39mm russian is a shorter and slightly slower round than the 5.56x45mm NATO
  • AK-74 is famous for its low recoil and good handling characteristics. Much due to its muzzle break.
  • Change is imperative due to the internal balance (east vs west) in PvP situations -- as for some reason the majority of taki forces deploy with a AK-74

Concluding

The Ak-74 either needs reduced vertical muzzleclimb to make it more in line with similar assault rifles -- or a slightly higher rate of fire to lessen the impact of felt recoil (ak107 still feels right)

-k

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I have to agree, the amount of Recoil the AKs74 has compared to the M4/M16/Mk16 is way to much...it should be in fact a bit less then the .223 since the 5,45x39 round has a weaker charge than a 5,65x45.

Noticed this while playing US for the first time in Warfare this week...the M series have no recoil at all compared to the Aks

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I have to agree, the amount of Recoil the AKs74 has compared to the M4/M16/Mk16 is way to much...it should be in fact a bit less then the .223 since the 5,45x39 round has a weaker charge than a 5,65x45.

Noticed this while playing US for the first time in Warfare this week...the M series have no recoil at all compared to the Aks

And also for the fact that the US rifles in this utilize flash hiders, not muzzle breaks. So the recoil couldn't possibly be less than the AK74, which is very reasonable in real life.

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And also for the fact that the US rifles in this utilize flash hiders, not muzzle breaks. So the recoil couldn't possibly be less than the AK74, which is very reasonable in real life.

Well, US rifles don't have massive bolt carrier with a permanently attached long stroke gas piston, which cause most of vertical recoil when fired in full auto.

It seems AK-74 recoil just hasn't beed adjusted properly to new recoil system. More manageable recoil of AKM pretty much proves it. v1.56 maybe?

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I was gonna point out the gas system as well, but I'm sure BIS will look into adjusting the weapons in the future for better representation of recoil per weapon.

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And also for the fact that the US rifles in this utilize flash hiders, not muzzle breaks.
Well, the M16A2/3/4, the M4/M4A1, and also the M249 with the normal barrel have a combination flash suppressor and compensator.

STORM6.jpg

Note how the five slots are on the upper half to direct propellent gas upward to help reduce muzzle climb.

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Here is some data for reference:

AKM Recoil Energy = 5.3 Ft.Lbs (from east-german tests, one reference here) - lower than what can be calculated due to the muzzle brake

AK-74 Recoil Energy = 2.5 Ft.Lbs (from east-german tests) - lower than what can be calculated due to the muzzle brake

M16A2 Recoil Energy = ~3 Ft.Lbs (various internet sources referencing books) - roughly the same as what is calculated using a 62Gr bullet, 3100Fps velocity, 26.1Gr charge load.

Edited by Panzer Jager

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there is already a thread about the new recoil, i don't see a reason for another

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Well, the M16A2/3/4, the M4/M4A1, and also the M249 with the normal barrel have a combination flash suppressor and compensator.

A compensator and a muzzle break are two different things though. A compensator's main purpose is to reduce recoil movement in the vertical plane (up/down and left/right), while a muzzle break's is to reduce the recoil force backwards.

The AK-74's muzzle break doesn't guide the gases as much upwards (to prevent muzzle climb) as the standard M16/M4 one, but very effectively reduces the recoil force back into the shoulder of the shooter.

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A compensator and a muzzle break are two different things though. A compensator's main purpose is to reduce recoil movement in the vertical plane (up/down and left/right), while a muzzle break's is to reduce the recoil force backwards.

The AK-74's muzzle break doesn't guide the gases as much upwards (to prevent muzzle climb) as the standard M16/M4 one, but very effectively reduces the recoil force back into the shoulder of the shooter.

Yes, I know and agree; I should have been clearer and was more trying to say that the A2 and later variants have a muzzle device that incorporates a recoil effect reduction function, unlike the ones on the A1 and prior models, which had the slots evenly spaced around the circumference and are only flash suppressors.

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this is a great thread. getting each gun to 'act' as close to possible as the real would be awesome.

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there is already a thread about the new recoil, i don't see a reason for another

Because the other thread is all waah-waah make the new recoil optional. In other discussion threads the L110A1 has frequently been mentioned, and for most it is painfully obvious that that MG needs work.

However I wanted to highlight the more subtle issue and fixes necessary to bring the Ak-74 series weapon systems in line! Additionally I strongly suspect the majority of players (much due to scenarios) are considerably more familiar with Blueforce weapons and not as much Opfor ones -- this discussion is absolutely necessary.

-k

edit: I believe it was a former East German test report that produced the following results: Felt recoil energy delivered by the AK-74 is 3.39 joules, compared to 6.44 in the M16 and 7.19 in the AKM. anecdotal at best, and I can't get my hands on the source document -- for what its worth some quick googling does seem to indicate this being a fairly pervasive figures. Note: Before Americans get their panties in a bunch -- this was obviously not the modern M16a4 with modern rounds -- but rather a test from the 70s

Edited by NkEnNy
Recoil figures

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have anyone ever fired both rifles in real life? I have. The m16 can accurately (point target) hit a target out to 500meters. while the Ak is 300meters. The ak has a tiny buttstock that feels better suited for children then for a grown adult. Also the recoil will be worse then the m16 because the m16 was specificaly designed to kick up, not side to side or down. hence the muzzle break design on the ak is to compensate for that side to side motion. On top of even that the AK heats up so hot after firing a few magazines that you have to ware gloves to shoot the thing. and yes i'm refering to the 7.62 round when i'm talking about the ak.

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and yes i'm refering to the 7.62 round when i'm talking about the ak.
We're talking mainly about the recoil of the 5.45 (AK-74 it says in the thread title.)

So while the AK 7.62 to M16 balance is still important, the initial complaint of the thread is that the AK 5.45 is kicking too hard when it should be even lower recoil than an M4A1, and considerably lower than the AK 7.62.

edit: I believe it was a former East German test report that produced the following results: Felt recoil energy delivered by the AK-74 is 3.39 joules, compared to 6.44 in the M16 and 7.19 in the AKM. anecdotal at best, and I can't get my hands on the source document -- for what its worth some quick googling does seem to indicate this being a fairly pervasive figures. Note: Before Americans get their panties in a bunch -- this was obviously not the modern M16a4 with modern rounds -- but rather a test from the 70s
I referenced that on page 1 :) Here is one link. http://www.warriortalk.com/showpost.php?p=838695&postcount=10

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I haven't looked at the configs -- but it turns out the Mk17 (7.62x51 NATO) has LESS vertical recoil than the Ak-74 (intermediate cartridge 5.45x39mm warsaw)

I call BS.

-k

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This is one topic that will go on for ever as everyone will have a different opinion. Even if somehow there is a consensus about one gun having more recoil, somone else will come in nit pick and say that they are talking about this version (say Russian) and some other version (say Czech) isn't like that and it will start all over again.

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This is one topic that will go on for ever as everyone will have a different opinion. Even if somehow there is a consensus about one gun having more recoil, somone else will come in nit pick and say that they are talking about this version (say Russian) and some other version (say Czech) isn't like that and it will start all over again.

Your first observation is definitely true, but it does not mean that this topic should be discarded. While the simulation of recoil might never be perfect in ArmA, it doesn't mean that there is no point on working to improve it. As of now, the recoil of the AK-74 could definitely be improved (albeit not perfected), that's what this thread is about.

As to your second point, all localizations of ArmA are using the same data; only the actual languages are different.

Peace,

DreDay

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For comparison here are some interesting facts about the weapon damage in ArmA2 which should be taken into account for balancing discussions:

B_545x39_Ball

hit = 8;

initSpeed = 900;

B_545x39_SD

hit = 8;

typicalSpeed = 320;

B_556x45_Ball

hit = 8;

initSpeed = 930;

B_556x45_SD

Hit = 7;

typicalSpeed = 320;

B_762x39_Ball

hit = 9;

typicalSpeed = 710;

B_762x51_Ball

hit = 12;

initSpeed = 900;

B_762x54_Ball

hit = 12;

initSpeed = 870;

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As to your second point, all localizations of ArmA are using the same data; only the actual languages are different.

Peace,

DreDay

Sorry I didn't word it right. When I said versions I meant between weapons ie Russian AK Vs Czech AK. I'm all for improving the game but whose voice do we listen to in order to make the change?

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I'm all for improving the game but whose voice do we listen to in order to make the change?
The weapon model's voice. If the Russian AKM and the Czech AKM perform vastly different, chances are that they are visually different too - like the Type-56 to the AK-47. So we look at the model which is represented in the game, and what makes sense - who is using the AKM? Well, it's the Russians and the Takistan Militia, therefore chances are it's not Czech.
For comparison here are some interesting facts about the weapon damage in ArmA2 which should be taken into account for balancing discussions:

A whole new system would need to be implemented to proplery simulate Terminal Ballistics, and for some calibers in the game the Terminal Ballistics data is not well known - for example, 7.62x54 7N14 Sniper Ball and 9x39. So while it would be nice if the AKM had lower damage against personnel due to the garbage terminal ballistics of the 7.62x39 M43, doing a full system would be really hard - especially when you get to 5.56x45 NATO whose tissue damage depends heavily on velocity, but obviously changing the "air friction" of the bullet not only affects damage but also flight path. Edited by Panzer Jager

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This is one topic that will go on for ever as everyone will have a different opinion. Even if somehow there is a consensus about one gun having more recoil, somone else will come in nit pick and say that they are talking about this version (say Russian) and some other version (say Czech) isn't like that and it will start all over again.

There is a role here for simple objective physics. That 7.62 Nato has more recoil than 5.56 Nato is not an opinion.

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Last night I picked up AK74 PSO becouse I was out of ammo for M4 and I was really surprised how much recoil AK has. Its crazy. Full auto is useless on more then 3m or smt. I was shooting 2 round bursts and second bullet went up way too much.

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If the AK_74 has so little recoil, why have the Russians been trying all sorts of tricks to reduce it further with the later AK models and AN-94?

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If the AK_74 has so little recoil, why have the Russians been trying all sorts of tricks to reduce it further with the later AK models and AN-94?

If the M1A1 Abrams is such a well armored tank, why have Americans been trying all sorts of tricks to improve it's survivability with later models (M1A1HA/HC, M1A2)?

Everything is relative in our life and while the AK74 has less recoil than the AK(M); it is still very far from recoilless.

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This.

Also Russian commercial entities are just as susceptible to passing fads and overhyped concepts. Cue xm8, OICW and G11. (Bradley, Raptor, M777, etc etc)

Consider this:

The Ak74 as a weapon system, ignoring attachments such as optics or IR lasers, is somewhat heavier than a M4 or M16 rifle; but also shoots a slightly smaller projectile (shorter meaning less charge)

The 5.45x39mm is a slower bullet – translating in arma2 to less damage. These low damaging bullets are delivered from a weapon system with rudimentary sights for long range shooting .

Yet the gun is burdened with greater recoil than any western equivalent? About the only thing that could be counted as an advantage when compared to a M4 is a slower Rate of Fire – which is of questionable merit anyhow because at long range you are shooting semi-auto and in CQB a high rate of fire is actually an advantage!

I say that not only from a realistic perspective – but also from a GAME perspective (PvP certainly) the ak74 is given unfair treatment with the new way recoil is handled. I must stress that only MINOR tweaks are necessary – and I DO believe the balance was excellent pre-recoil.

-k

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