New recoil, please make it go away

[Dwarden 1125]

Few notes to the new recoil:

* it is tweaked and tested through long public beta patch process, we believe what is in the game now is overall very good game model for recoil

* making an option for the "old" recoil or to lower recoil is not something we would be keen to do: such option would be problem in mp (where this settings clearly would be server side only) and we prefer to keep this part of the game always the same in all modes

* it certainly requires training and is more demanding than the pre-1.54 recoil

read this ^

[Laqueesha 474]

I didn't notice any new recoil system after installing the latest patches, but I like it the way it is; it's fine.

[Capt. Sand 10]

a combination of the old recoil, weapon kick-back, and screen shake would've been nice. I personally thought the old auto-realigning of the sights simulated control of the weapon. that, and it let me be lazy.

that said, I don't really mind the current recoil. if no change, then no change.

[bigshot 64]

havent tried the new patch yet but this new recoil feature sounds like it might be a great addition for those who prefer playing PvP.

But, for those who play mostly coop, the enemy AI was already approaching god-like talents before this heavier recoil for the human players and sounds as if itll make things even more unbalanced...although I havent tried it yet but this is just the impression im getting from reading around.

[akd42 10]

I wouldnt mind the new recoil if it wasnt so exaggerated. It needs to be toned down.

Alot of guns have become useless, such as any AK variant and all those Czech guns too.

Well, instead of whining about it in general, we could all make bug reports where there are specific inconsistencies. (Although I did check the Sa-58 CCO and it was fine. It had somewhat more recoil than the M4A3, but that is as it should be.)

Here is one I have found and will report as a bug. The new L110a1 (British M249 SAW) has strange behavior and is not in line with the near identical US Army SAW. Prone recoil is okay, although it seems to have an excessive downward component at the end of firing. Crouched and standing recoil pulls the gun very strongly upward and right in a way that is impossible to control, but only if you are not moving. Several problems here:

1. A heavier gun firing the same cartridge as a lighter gun should not have more recoil, yet compare the L110A1 crouched/standing to the M4A3 on full auto in the same positions.

2. Identical US M249 SAW does not show the same behavior.

3. The very pronounced upward component goes away if you are simultaneously moving while crouched/standing, with the gun behaving more like the M249 fired standing still crouched/standing.

a combination of the old recoil, weapon kick-back, and screen shake would've been nice. I personally thought the old auto-realigning of the sights simulated control of the weapon. that, and it let me be lazy.

that said, I don't really mind the current recoil. if no change, then no change.

Same way enabling auto-aim simulates aiming the rifle. :p

Edited August 28, 2010 by akd42

[fideco 1]

The new recoil is fine for me.

Bis did a good work.

Maybe a more noticeable sway motion is needed..

Cheers

[4 IN 1 0]

In real life all are depend on how you grip your gun and your stance, lets assume that you are running an M4 and got a good grip and good stance, the recoil would be very managable and you shouldnt have your gun flying all over the place, on the other hand the law of physics tell us that if you want to push a round out of the barrel with supersonic speed there will be a kick back on you, and that kick will mess up your aim, so the current new recoil is an improvement, yet on some gun might need to tune it down so that it suit better for when having a good grip as IRL.

P.S. I personally havent play through all the guns, but for those I have played with the recoil is acturally quite good IMO

Edited August 28, 2010 by 4 IN 1

[Beagle 684]

The new recoil is excellent, and already a toned down version of the recoil once introduced in the betas. Me as a real life sports shootist and ex-military cant find much wrong with it. The new recoil once and for all end the uswe od fullauto sniping and overprecise assault rifle sniping we suffered from in the past, most prominet with high powered .308 rifles. Stance now makes the difference...you simply cant really exspect to shoot with high precision standing at 100 meters full auto or rapid semi fire. OA is finally in the realm of SIMULATION here. Player still can adopt, but the shooting performance at range or in full auto is down to personal skill now, no more autorecenter. That will make a difference now especially in MP. The point is easy now...if you want a easy to control weapon now, stay away from the high powered ones...that was actually the reason why the small bore was introduced.

The Mk16,M16,M4,SAW are still very easy to control with the new recoil.

Edited August 28, 2010 by Beagle

[My Fing ID 0]

Haven't tried the new recoil yet. I admit there could be some fixes to automatic weapons fire maybe, like an AK on full auto standing. However from my personal experience, like the above said if you are braced correctly an M4/M16 will fall right back on target after you fire. Seriously it's like a half second or something and you're back to basically where you were. Even standing with my AK it's pretty much right back on when fired single fire. With the M249 and M240B in the prone I could lay a 5-7 round burst and be on target. They don't jump much when you're on the ground which is pretty well simulated in this game. Hell 1 round with the 240B at 800 meters is actually really accurate, especially with that scope (can't remember the name but it's the big fat one that's in AO). Anyways I hope they didn't fuck it up because with the way I was playing things seemed pretty on.

BTW Zarcowi, however you spell that, the terrorist in Iraq that got shot is the only guy I've seen shoot a 249 standing and have any real accuracy. I tried it once and I was floating up real quick. Army doesn't really train for that kind of thing (or burst from M16/m4 oddly enough).

[TechnoTerrorist303 10]

From playing last night I can honestly say that I like the new system better. You shouldn't be able to lie prone on a hill picking individual targets off at long range with your assault rifle without a great deal of skill, this simulates that pretty well.

Full auto is completely inaccurate but then I'm pretty sure it is in RL also.

[Iroquois Pliskin 0]

Revamped recoil is a lot better than the old one. Now, you can't put 6 rounds at 400m in a human figutre in 0.5 second with the M4 ACOG anymore. You're not Oswald, haha. :cc:

[JSj 12]

I have updated to 1.54, and the recoil seems exactly the same to me. Do you need to activate the new system somehow?

[JLea 10]

They changed the recoil? I didn't notice a thing. :confused:

[JSj 12]

Ok, I see it now. When you fire full auto or very fast semi auto the barrel climbs up permanently, and you need to move your mouse down to compensate for the recoil and get your aim back. It it so small an effect on the 5.56 weapons that I never noticed that anything had changed until I tried rapid firing with some of the heavier weapons.

I really don't understand how anyone can say it ruins the gaming experience and that you will die every time when you encounter more than 1 or 2 enemies. It's a very moderate change, and I think it makes for better realism.

[CarlGustaffa 4]

Before you could shoot wait shoot wait shoot wait, and every bullet would hit the same spot (if it had no dispersion). Your aim always fell back to precisely the same spot. Now you have to "work the gun", reaim slightly between each shot. Typically for fast shooting you have to keep dragging downwards a little, to resent the weapons tendency to climb, depending on caliber I guess.

Some addons are believed to exaggerate this effect to the point where it becomes a problem. But I have absolutely no problems with how it is implemented in vanilla. Sure there is a climb tendency. Sure the weapon doesn't "come back". But I believe a "random reset around original aimpoint" would be far more painful to deal with than the current one where you at least know what to expect and can counter it with some practice.

We can still shoot fast, but it requires some practice and it's no longer a "freebie". Due to the fact that we have to reaim the following shots, if you shoot "too fast", you'll probably miss the target. But the rounds (impacting close to the target) still have suppression value, and we have a longer firefight.

The point is, you need a LOT of rounds shot per enemy killed/wounded. This was not reflected in the "game" before with the "auto aim" system where you could basically outshoot a light machinegun (wrt rounds vs effectiveness).

[Capt. Sand 10]

Same way enabling auto-aim simulates aiming the rifle. :p

you know, I actually tried out the auto-aim back in the first ARMA. it ended up making things worse. guess I just prefer having control over my weapon. who knows.

Edit: ah, shoot. might as well add to this.

I'm a fan of the old system because of the auto-realignment, as you've probably noticed by now. however, I agree that it made things a little too easy, even for my tastes.

for example -

1. sniper rifles could be fired too quickly.

2. you only had to aim where the assault rifles/MGs would hit, and you could full-auto there for days.

so, since I'm such a big fan of auto-realignment, I thought 'why not have the weapon recoil in different directions while firing full auto, but let it auto-realign after letting go of the trigger?'

what about semi-auto, you ask? won't we hit in the same spot after each shot?

I guess you could counter the auto-realigning by having some kind of default weapon sway. you could even remove the bead from the crosshairs to add to the effect.

this is an interesting issue for me, as I'm in favor of both the old system and the current one, for different reasons.

Edited August 28, 2010 by Capt. Sand

[Ben Endless 10]

-1 for the new recoil.

for those who play mostly coop, the enemy AI was already approaching god-like talents before this heavier recoil for the human players and sounds as if it'll make things even more unbalanced...

Played some co-op last night, and the AI is still firing accurate 10 shot bursts from a standing position 200 meters away. It's quite obvious that they are unaffected by this new, horrible dynamic. I'm constantly dying because every time I return a shot (semi, from a crouch), my M4 is aimed 15 feet over their heads.

This is total crap.

For those who want to argue realism:

I can concede that a gun kicks when it's fired, but it also comes to rest after the kick. Maybe not exactly where it was pointed, but at least on the relative elevation.

This new recoil is more like "catching" your gun at the peak of recoil, and that's where it stays....so much for gravity or the laws of physics.

For all you real life shooters (yes, I'm one), everytime you squeeze off a round, are you really PULLING DOWN to get you're sights unstuck from the sky?

This new model more accurately represents a swift upward kick in your stablizing arm's elbow than a gun firing. And it's curious how your muscles lock once the apex is reached...the sights have to be manually LOWERED (not just re-aligned).

My buddies and I lasted half a co-op mission last night before we reverted to playing ArmA2 1.07...simply to get away from this new, awful recoil.

I'm all for realism, and in the sake of gaming, I also like to have fun.

Anti-gravity recoil, and guns that only kick up and never come to rest, isn't realistic, or fun.

I can see how this would even the playing field in PvP, and the old recoil may not have been perfect, but this just doesn't work. The AI now have the ability to lay down massive firepower on you, while you're harmlessly popping shots off above their heads, and your guns doing it's best "flagpole" impression.

Boo for this.

-1 recoil.

Edited August 28, 2010 by Ben Endless

[aspire 11]

thats exactly what i was trying to say, or at least make it so that the new recoil is on the expert difficulty or sth and leave the old one in recruit and normal difficulty.

but this is simply taking away the fun at some parts

[mosh 0]

I'm glad they kept it in. There was plenty of discussion about it already with the betas for the last few month. Our voices were heard and listened too.

+1 for recoil... :) You don't like it? Too bad. You ever shoot a real gun? They really do kick harder than a BB gun.

[akd42 10]

-1 for the new recoil.

Played some co-op last night, and the AI is still firing accurate 10 shot bursts from a standing position 200 meters away. It's quite obvious that they are unaffected by this new, horrible dynamic. I'm constantly dying because every time I return a shot (semi, from a crouch), my M4 is aimed 15 feet over their heads.

This is total crap.

More nonsense exaggerations. Just sprinted 200m with M4A3 CCO, then dumped half a mag at my feet to get suppression effect, then crouched and aimed at 200m pop-up targets. After each shot the sight came to rest one width of the red dot (at full zoom) higher than the position of the red dot before the shot. So that is what, 6 to 8 moa higher, i.e. between 1-2 feet at 200m Tried same with the M4A3 ACOG and aiming at the belly/waist of the pop-up at 200m, the sight was still on the target (left shoulder) after I took the shot.

The other thing you need to keep in mind is having a linear component to the recoil that is stronger than the random component (and there is some of that) allows the player a role in controlling the weapon. You need to stop thinking of downward mouse movement as solely pulling the barrel down, but also as properly holding the weapon and pulling it into your shoulder. And yes, this does mean that skill and practice can play a role, where with a truly random dispersion system every player would just be running around holding the mouse down and firing a fixed cone of dispersion.

Went ahead and did a few more tests with a "higher" recoil weapon, the AKM. No problem delivering two rapid shots onto a pop-up target at 100m while standing (yes the second shot hit before the target even fell). That is outstanding performance for an AK.

Edited August 28, 2010 by akd42

[A-SUICIDAL 11]

I can't believe some of the replies I've read. lol. Yeah, everybody is entitled to their opinion, it just seems like some opinions are coming from a young age group. It would help if the developers simply made it so the skill levels in the game incorporated recoil levels, so some noob out there that wants low recoil could simply choose an easy skill setting that incorporates low recoil and host a low recoil server, and all the realism guys that want MEGA recoil could host a server set to some hardcore skill setting that incorporates heavy recoil and other things that they desire.

If your going to talk about how real guns shoot in real life, well, um, this is a game. No game will ever be anything like real life EVER. Not enough recoil, too much recoil, I'm just thankful to be playing this game for what it is. Geez, I spend most my time in the editor and when I do finally sit down to play the game I've usually had a few cocktails and can't aim worth a shiz anyway. Recoil ways heavily on realism. If you like extra recoil, then you must like your game as realistic as possible. If you want your game to be as realistic as possible, then here's what you do... buy a shooter game, install it, play it, and when you get killed, uninstall it and then never play it again because your dead and dead people don't respawn. lol.

I always thought real guns shot just like BB guns. I had no idea. Thanks Mosh, now I can appreciate the ridiculous amount of recoil even more than I did before. God I love this game.

[akd42 10]

If you want your game to be as realistic as possible, then here's what you do... buy a shooter game, install it, play it, and when you get killed, uninstall it and then never play it again because your dead and dead people don't respawn. lol.

I love people who repeat this ad nauseum like they are true wits who will confound us all. It is the ultimate wargame/simulation reductio ad absurdum. Unfortunately it provides no basis for constructive discussion and is therefore the equivalent of spam.

[Grizzle 0]

First I want to say that not everyone uses BETA or visits that particular forum. I think it would have been better to announce this change outside of the BETA forum to get more general feedback as I think most of the folks who mess with the beta's are hardcore players whose attitudes and opinions don't always align with the rest of the player base.

That being said I can't complain *too* much about the new recoil, but as some others have said the real issue is it doesn't return to center AT ALL which is completely unrealistic. Sure I know moving the mouse down would simulate your muscle tension keeping the gun somewhat on target, but I don't think the gun should just stay where it ends up after a few rounds if one doesn't adjust the mouse when firing.

I do find it a bit more tedious to play now and I never really thought the recoil needed to be made harder to handle so I'm not sure why the change was made in the first place. If it was done to appease the hardcore MP crowd I can understand that, but it shouldn't be done at the expense of SP'ers or those that don't really play MP.

[mosh 0]

I always thought real guns shot just like BB guns. I had no idea. Thanks Mosh, now I can appreciate the ridiculous amount of recoil even more than I did before. God I love this game.

My internet sarcasm always fails...

My real point was that this was discussed for a few months and this is the decision BIS made. I didn't like it at first either, and even posted awhile back that I didn't like it. But as I got used to it I learned to deal with it. I like it now and would not want it to go back as it was before.

I guess I just think of this more as a simulator (as many do) and not a game.

The recoil isn't as bad as so many make it out to be anyways.

[bascule42 10]

After using ACE2 since its release, or whenever ACE2 had added a bit more recoil in, Ive kinda got used it now. So much so, when playing vanilla or non-ACE2 Arma, it felt...well, it felt like a bit of cheat. 'Cause of this, I can't say I really mind it now. I suppose the main thing I have noticed is that I'm running out of ammo quicker. :rolleyes: Oh, and scoped wapons are not the easy (easier anyway), ride they used to be. Add this to being out of breath, and maybe shot in the leg. Pop smoke, "2 attack that man". :D