Project Reality - WIP Discussion

[Cotala Studios 10]

Edit: I failed like FPDR

Edited August 23, 2010 by Cotala Studios

[Darkhorse 1-6 16]

@galzohar

how is the PRBF2 damage/first aid system less realistic than the vanilla bf2 first aid system? Compared to shocking somebody with defibrillators after they just got shot, I don't think it is arcady at all.

He never said that the Vanilla BF2 system is more realistic. You should read things more carefully. ;)

[Cotala Studios 10]

I'm sorry galzohar, I completely misread your post. I beg your forgiveness

:pray: :pray: :pray: :pray: :pray:

[galzohar 31]

Yeah, I dislike all those medic systems on similar levels. Some are simple and unrealistic, and some remove the simple unrealistic features and try to add realistic features which just add the lack of realism back into them. I didn't say I like one more than the other, just that I dislike all of them, and in fact have a hard time deciding which one I dislike more (Arma default, BIS module, ACE module, PR:BF2 system, America's Army 3 system - They all have massive flaws in the realism department).

I just hope we don't have guys that got shot badly enough that they dropped to the ground ever walk again, because it just feels stupid to yell "yo, man, I got shot I can't see anything and I can't move my legs" then someone come, use some magical medic items on you and you're back up on your feet searching for the next enemy. It might be nice for gameplay but it totally kills realism and immersion for me, which at least IMO is a no-go. I really hope that we'll have, as suggested in the past, that you treat the guy's wounds just to evac his "wounded avatar" for some extra score rather than actually heal him to bring him back into combat.

[twisted 127]

I just hope we don't have guys that got shot badly enough that they dropped to the ground ever walk again, because it just feels stupid to yell "yo, man, I got shot I can't see anything and I can't move my legs" then someone come, use some magical medic items on you and you're back up on your feet searching for the next enemy. It might be nice for gameplay but it totally kills realism and immersion for me, which at least IMO is a no-go. I really hope that we'll have, as suggested in the past, that you treat the guy's wounds just to evac his "wounded avatar" for some extra score rather than actually heal him to bring him back into combat.

that is a hardcore way of doing it. not much fun, but in mp tournaments very interesting. in SP though (and non-hardcore MP) i doubt it would translate to satisfying gameplay much at all. but a very interesting idea.

[Cotala Studios 10]

I think that MP should have two different styles: hardcore, and normal. Hardcore uses wounding system like the one mentioned, an extreme logistics system, and the ai difficulty is set high. The normal mode does the exact opposite. The hardcore mode would mostly be used in tornies and private servers, normal mostly in public servers.

[Wolfstriked 11]

What player would sit around wounded to be transported all the way back to camp?I love realism but for gameplay I doubt PR will go this way.I think what would be kool is when downed and revived that you keep some nagging effects always.Like if your wounded then the whole rest of fight you can't run,breathing heavy,aim is slightly off etc.

[Cotala Studios 10]

What player would sit around wounded to be transported all the way back to camp?I love realism but for gameplay I doubt PR will go this way.I think what would be kool is when downed and revived that you keep some nagging effects always.Like if your wounded then the whole rest of fight you can't run,breathing heavy,aim is slightly off etc.

I would sit around and wait. As I said, there should be a 'hardcore' mode and a 'normal' mode. Or server admins should be able to select what features the want and don't want.

[turin turambar 0]

What player would sit around wounded to be transported all the way back to camp?I love realism but for gameplay I doubt PR will go this way.I think what would be kool is when downed and revived that you keep some nagging effects always.Like if your wounded then the whole rest of fight you can't run,breathing heavy,aim is slightly off etc.

Once the player is wounded, the soldier himself would be not controlled by the player, but by the AI, only left in the game to be carried to the camp for the extra score.

[craig.turner 10]

As always Project Reality tries to balance both Gameplay and Realism together. We want the game to remain fun and a "game" but at the same time strive to bring in some realism, so people actually "value" their lives, team and assets whilst ingame.

When you are in a situation where you are wounded, its so easy sometimes to ask a team member to shoot you as you know you will respawn in 2 seconds etc.

The system we are looking at, at present is very similar to real life, but with a few differences.

We are looking at bringing in a MERT (Medical Emergency Response Team).

See Links:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lp9N2q1Kd_4&feature=related

These guys are truely amazing in Afghanistan at present, having worked with these guys - they are a true "asset" to us.

Anyway, they are basically a team of medics, with their own protection force, who will move around the battlefield in a Helo picking up the wounded.

RL - of course they are taken back to Bastion for treatment, and ingame that would be a slow process, and pretty dull.

To compromise we are looking at a few differences.

1. Small scale wounds, can be treated by the team medic

2. Anything Major, you can request a MERT Team, to a location.

3. The MERT Team will arrive, pick the wounded up, and once in the Helo will start to "Auto-heal" the wounded soldier, this will take some time to do, so the Helo may want to fly around whilst this is being done, to save sitting in a Hot Zone. Of course the wounded may be recovered to a safe HLS to do this, thats a Team decision though.

The MERT Team will be made up of a full Squad, ie 1 x Pilot - 2 x Medics and 3 x Protection Soldiers. Once this team is formed up and in the helo, the "Auto Heal" in the Helo will happen, if not a full team it will not happen.

Of course, if a MERT Team is not created on the server by "humans", it will not be available to the team.

This again creates a Team that "needs" to work together.

Edited August 23, 2010 by Craig.Turner

[gazzthompson 10]

. As I said, there should be a 'hardcore' mode and a 'normal' mode..

This has been suggested numerous times for PR:BF2 , the DEVs have always rejected the idea of different "versions" of PR. I would imagine (tho im not sure) the same would apply to PR:ArmA2

[galzohar 31]

I have to be honest this whole medical thing sound very iffy to me.

With my suggestion you don't have to actually sit there waiting to be evacuated (after all, getting fully healed would probably take weeks or months or even more IRL), but rather once you are in a state where you are useless to your team, your "wounded body" would stay there and you will respawn as reinforcement. That way you won't have a friend shoot you so that you can just respawn quickly nor would you need a medic to bring you back into the battle. And then, just like in real life, healing the "wounded bodies" would simply be a way to reduce the death count your team suffered, and not in order to bring practically dead guys back into battle.

IRL reinforcements are sent when they're needed, not when the wounded guys arrive back home.

A medical system in which critically wounded soldiers are brought back into the fight can cause the reverse effect to what you would see IRL - IRL you would take care of the enemy first, and only then look after your wounded. With arcadish medical systems you cover your medic while he heals the wounded guys so those guys can help you kill the enemy, which is completely unrealistic.

If critically wounded (non-combat-capable) soldiers can respawn with the same respawn timer as dead soldiers, then this much more realistic system won't hurt the gameplay at all and only add to it (while removing the unrealistic arcadish portion of healing people back up into combat capability in the field).

Then for mediocre wounds you can give the soldier an option to keep fighting until evacuated or to just "drop to the ground and respawn" and have other players evacuate him, again so that a player that feels he is being useless even though his wounds aren't critical enough to totally immobilize/disable him, he won't end up getting someone to shoot him because he can just respawn and let his teammates treat and evacuate his "wounded body".

In the end, wounded soldiers don't stay on the battlefield no matter what injury (obviously except for extremely light injuries), and I really hoped this would be the case in PR as well.

While evacuating players just for reducing the death count wouldn't work well in coop missions, in PvP missions you have the score that gives you motivation to reduce the death count. I wouldn't suggest something like this to anything less than a fully balanced high-quality PvP modification, as it simply wouldn't work anywhere else for gameplay, but with PR, using an appropriate scoring system, it can very well work.

You can still have all the medical system remain the same, except instead of bringing the guy back into combat, you will just be slowing down his dying process so that you can bring his wounded body back to the hospital for more complete treatment and recovery, all while the actual player that was wounded is already up and running as a new fresh reinforcement.

[gazzthompson 10]

Having some sort of dumb AI take over your body when you are "critical beyound healing" or something that can then be commanded and then evacuated by MERT team and RTB'ed where the AI disappears or something would be good no? maybe have it so your team gets tickets for this?

im just thinking out loud here as im bored at work.

[luckyhendrix 10]

I have to be honest this whole medical thing sound very iffy to me.

IRL you would take care of the enemy first, and only then look after your wounded. With arcadish medical systems you cover your medic while he heals the wounded guys so those guys can help you kill the enemy, which is completely unrealistic.

I do not Agree this is not always true, of course if there is an enemy in the immidiate proximity we take care of him first. But most of the time people take care of the injuried and bring him back in a safe zone while at the same time other people take care of the enemy. You can see that in Afghanistan, the evacuation of any wounded soldier is it ANA or coalition is the N°1 priority.Otherwise I think you have very good ideas.

[TRexian 0]

That MERT team would be a HVT for the enemy, too. There would be a premium placed on securing the LZ for it, and a corollary goal for the enemy to either keep fighting, or lure it in.

Could make for an interesting mini-game. :)

[Smurf 12]

I like the MERT idea. Would be better if:

Medic heal = Minor heal.

MERT\Black Hawk = Full heal, slow.

Field Hospital (in the main base) = Full heal, fast.

Althought galzohar idea is good too; In major injuries, the body keeps "rolling" in the ground for x amount of time, the player spawns, and the team can recover that "ticket" healing that body, or the OPFOR team could win\reduce enemys ticket by healing and capturing that body.

_____________

Another thing that pissed my off in BF2:PR = Base camping. Any changes on that?

I mean, when the team deserves it (losing all "flags" or areas) its OK, but at the round start is ridiculous. No one would leave a whole base unmmaned IRL, but force players to sit there to maybe counter some enemy attack is anti-productive.

[trips 10]

I think what Galzohar and Gazz just posted is the best way to do this.

CASEVAC = saved tickets.

[LugNut 10]

+2 :) I like Galhozar's idea!

I'll play with whatever the PR devs come up with, but I think this is a good balance between gameplay and realism. It'd still force teamwork which is good, but you wouldn't spend half your gametime trying to get healed/evac-ed.

Edited August 23, 2010 by LugNut
clarification

[niall0 10]

MERT sounds a good idea, will it also function with vehicles i.e a medical ambulance as we all know sometimes a Chopper ain't practical. That said I don't know the IRL procedure.

The ideas of just respawning in are a bit gash to be honest, as it takes it back to arcadeyness, as in real life you don't have 1 man dying and another jumping in, instead the battle being continued with one less guy. Then again, it's a game so it's shit if you get shot and can't do anything but roll around and virtually die then not be able to respawn.

Best wishes with the choice you take though.

[galzohar 31]

Yeah but IRL you don't respawn at all. If you justify respawns with them being "reinforcements", then reinforcements would realistically show up as soon as you get into some deep sh*t and not only after you evacuated your wounded.

[Cotala Studios 10]

I like the MERT idea as well.

[AfterDune 10]

In real life, you'd have hundreds of guys engaging each other (true, depending on the mission). Although a large playercount should be possible engine-wise (if I'm correct), I don't know what it'll do to performance and if you'll actually achieve that. So to simulate having way more guys than you really have, this respawnsystem is in place.

I understand if you find it "gamey", but we're still playing a game of course, plus in real life, a forward outpost will probably have more than 20 soldiers being there - respawning on FO's simulates this.

It's working very well in PR for BF2, I'm confident it will work similar in ArmA II.

[galzohar 31]

I understand the respawn schemes, but this has nothing to do with the first aid system. While respawns can simulate more soldiers being available, having an arcadish medical system changes around the whole combat mechanics and tactics (for example, you would treat wounded over engaging enemies in order to have the newly-healed friendlies come help you kill the enemy, while IRL you'd first kill the enemy and only then go back to save the wounded so they don't bleed to death).

I was really hoping for PR Arma 2 to take realism up to higher levels than what was in BF2.

Edited August 23, 2010 by galzohar

[AfterDune 10]

I know, I was talking about the idea behind respawning ;).

[CarlGustaffa 4]

I'm not familiar with PR, so I don't know what kinds of "teams" they operate with, but I think it would be nice if respawn system depended on what kind of team you're in. I.e. only infantry grunts could respawn at the very front, in team bases, tents or whatever. These guys are "easy to train and replace" and respawn should reflect that. It also awards people for taking the "lower classes".

If you advance to sniper or spec ops, you're considered harder to train and replace. Resulting in a respawn further away, maybe already secured checkpoints. Same for advanced vehicle crews. Helps to prevent "everyone wanting to be a so-called sniper", which is a common problem in other game modes if allowed.

No, haven't read the whole thread, and may not understand fully the concept of MERT. Just an idea of mine :)