CM Operation Flashpoint 3 announced | "Oops, they're doing it again..."

[max power 21]

Yeah, echeloning makes all kinds of sense... like, in real life, soldiers have no brain, survival instinct, or skill unless there's four of them... wait, what?

[ben_s 11]

You didn't read my post fully, obviously.

[max power 21]

The point I was making was that its implementation does not make sense at all. You can't say a bad idea is a good idea because it could have been good. Flying light tanks was not a good idea. It just wasn't. Saying that 'if they could have got it to work it would have been awesome' adds nothing.

[rangerpl 13]

I'm sorry, but I was not aware that FPDR had AI at all

[nodunit 397]

You mean, echeloning AI? That actually makes sense if you think about it ... And what do you mean by scripted warning zones?

I think he's talking about boundaries set up in mission editors around AI. Think of it as an invisible fence, there are two sets. The first and larger set either spawns the AI, or informs them that the player is nearby, even if they do not react.

The second and smaller of the two is the fighting zone, this tells the AI generally where they can roam, many games use this and in some cases there is nothing wrong with it, it works exceptionally well in close quarters since you can define area's for the AI to use for cover and more complex things. The trade off however is that large scale out doors will generally suffer.

And here is why.

I'll use Crysis for this example, I don't know if DR uses the same system but that is not the point of this post. The AI require at least 3 things.

A. Inner bounding box to indicate movement zone.

B. Outer boundary to indicate fire and awareness zone.

C. Movement paths (in this case sphere's connected to lines)

The AI need these 3 things to be able to do anything and while C works just fine in closed environments, again in the wide spanse of ground it doesn't since you have to link every 'foot' of space with a walking path.

Edited March 25, 2011 by NodUnit

[4 IN 1 0]

Why should I call a system that need an extra alert zone and a group of atless 4 soldiers inorder to make the AI start functioning (sort of) a good design is beyond my understanding

Edited March 25, 2011 by 4 IN 1

[ben_s 11]

Why should I call a system that need an extra alert zone and a group of atless 4 soldiers inorder to make the AI start functioning (sort of) a good design is beyond my understanding

You don't need either .

That AI just needs to be attached to an echelon (which takes 2 seconds in the editor). I don't know why CM Did this, most likley due to consoles, getting each AI to run it's cycles indipendantly, over getting 1 AI Unit (the Echelon) itself to do it, and the attached Ai's to just follow the order given, was alot less load.

So, the AI themselves are pretty (very) dumb, the echelons contain the actual AI part of them.

[Ulysses 10]

Should try to look at Templar's source. I made one that made the US AI super lethal simply because they shoot deadly lasers, heh :D

[rangerpl 13]

You don't need either .

That AI just needs to be attached to an echelon (which takes 2 seconds in the editor). I don't know why CM Did this, most likley due to consoles, getting each AI to run it's cycles indipendantly, over getting 1 AI Unit (the Echelon) itself to do it, and the attached Ai's to just follow the order given, was alot less load.

So, the AI themselves are pretty (very) dumb, the echelons contain the actual AI part of them.

So basically, another area where ARMA 2 reigns supreme.

[froggyluv 2130]

The fact that it requires an Echelon to get AI movin aint a big deal. AI's in Arma2 without a waypoint order dont really have the best brains either.

Place yourself in a tank against an enemy infantry squad without a waypoint order and they dont do so well for themselves.

[h - 169]

Place yourself in a tank against an enemy infantry squad without a waypoint order and they dont do so well for themselves.

While they don't really move with much intelligence (as in just lay down instead of finding cover etc) at least they fired an AT at me within a few seconds after they saw me (all AI was in the default skill when you set a group in the editor).

Which the DR "AI" does not do unless you go through all that echelon crap..

[ben_s 11]

... OR use Templar's mod. ;)

But yes, It's pretty stupid to force the user to give them an echelon to do something, but you can see why each AI aint an AI unit themselves, just by reminding yourself of the consoles memory and CPU power.

[PuFu 4591]

... OR use Templar's mod. ;)

But yes, It's pretty stupid to force the user to give them an echelon to do something, but you can see why each AI aint an AI unit themselves, just by reminding yourself of the consoles memory and CPU power.

While i understand being the acolyte of templar, this thread is neither about him, or FPDR, but the upcoming shooter called RR (which won't have a mission editor, nor SDK, and will be targeted for console players). Can we now go back to it (if there is anything more to say about), and leave DR's dead soul rest in peace?

Edited March 26, 2011 by PuFu

[ben_s 11]

Well, Be my guest, if you find something intresting about RR. We would glady talk about it. :)

[PuFu 4591]

Well, Be my guest, if you find something intresting about RR. We would glady talk about it. :)

my point precisely

[katipo66 94]

:811:

[grub 10]

Well, Be my guest, if you find something intresting about RR. We would glady talk about it. :)

We? So you do work for CM....

[katipo66 94]

:o:...

[ben_s 11]

my point precisely

Yes.

We? So you do work for CM....

Wait what?

[froggyluv 2130]

While they don't really move with much intelligence (as in just lay down instead of finding cover etc) at least they fired an AT at me within a few seconds after they saw me (all AI was in the default skill when you set a group in the editor).

Which the DR "AI" does not do unless you go through all that echelon crap..

That may be true but the point is that most games dont even give a mission editor to get all sandbox smexy in - so asking the editor user to place a one click module down or whatever just isnt a big deal if it is needed to intiate behaviour. Most mission makers go far,far beyond that adding all sorts of original and premade scripts to further define/modify AI behavior.

[Richey79 10]

For me, it's incredibly important that the AI are able to act in a somewhat believable fashion without lots of prompting through scripting etc. IMO, Bis' AI is fine out of the box (the infantry, anyway). These days they use grenade launchers, flares, search-lights etc. in a credible fashion and move in formation at a sensible rate whilst in 'danger' mode.

Very often, I don't feel like depending upon the whims of other mission designers. Some people like to make stealth missions, some arcade-style ones, some where you're just a cog in the military machine, others are obsessed with story-line and lengthy cut-scenes. Everyone's idea of the right balance of forces is different. Of course, I often don't feel like taking a gamble that a designer's highly sophisticated system of triggers and scripts won't turn out to be broken after 45 minutes of play (this isn't a complaint against community designers - it's as likely to happen in a professionally written campaign).

For this reason, I find it really important that in the editor I can throw down ten groups of units, a few medical modules and the high command one, and all that's left is to set up a few waypoints before you have a very playable mission.

So, in the space of twenty minutes I can have decided what balance of units, what map and what style of mission I want to play for the evening, and then spend the rest of the hour playing. Because the AI doesn't need babying or scripted gimmicks to work well enough, I can throw in a dose of WICT or DAC if I want that real warzone feeling with minimal effort.

If that was DR, I'd have to decide on the Monday night what I wanted to play and then script the AI's behaviours, on top of scripting them to pop in and out of existence as I move around the map to beat the daft entity limit. It'll probably be Thursday before I get to play the mission and *oh shit!*, I no longer feel like a stealthy, cerebral mission; I just want to get crazy with an armoured division to get the horror of my co-workers out of my system.

It's also really important that I don't have to script zones where the AI will start to react to my forces, otherwise no mission that I've designed myself will be playable for me, as everything will be far too predictable.

Edited March 26, 2011 by Richey79

[Cyper 18]

Totally hilarious. Sion Lenton tellings lies about Dragon Rising. I'd really like to see someone posting a thread about this on the Red River forum. I'm on my last leg there, so If I would, I would certainly get banned.

[PuFu 4591]

Totally hilarious. Sion Lenton tellings lies about Dragon Rising. I'd really like to see someone posting a thread about this on the Red River forum. I'm on my last leg there, so If I would, I would certainly get banned.

let it die already...the guys over CM forums are living in a world of their own, and so are their moderators and developers. it doesn't even worth posting there, since i got the feeling that firstly everyone there loves to be conned, and secondly, most of those are under-aged console players who wouldn't know the difference between a proper game like we used to have on PCs, and yet another dull clone of a previous action shooter that are dominating the market and as a result, the industry, even if they had it stuck right between their eyes

[Zipper5 74]

vUuV5d-vr3g

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vUuV5d-vr3g&NR=1

A member of the general public actually knows what's going on! :eek:

Although, he doesn't seem to know the developer-related issue. The MMO part made me cringe a bit too... But he's at least getting the overall message out there. Edited March 28, 2011 by Zipper5

[nodunit 397]

Oi! stop tracking what I'm watching then posting it.